06 - Raised by a Narcissist and How to Heal with Carling Middlestead

12-09-2022 • 44 mins

Dawn Taylor invites guest Carling Middlestead, producer and co-host of I Did Not Sign Up For This podcast, onto the show to talk about grief. Specifically they discuss the complicated process of grieving the loss of a parent who wasn’t your superhero, who wasn’t ideal. What is that grief like and how do you navigate it?

Carling shares how she recently lost her father to a type of acute leukemia and the complicated feelings that brought up. Grieving the loss of a father who was narcissistic and dismissive of her growing up, one whom others found charming and generous, left her with much to process. She explains how she sat with her dad in his last weeks, how she saw the man he was with others, and how she works to reconcile that.

Dawn explains how her mother died suddenly in a car crash and how the complexity of their relationship made navigating her grieving difficult. She also saw how her mother was an amazing person to others which did not echo her own experience. Dawn and Carling discuss what it means to hold space for someone facing loss, what the loss feels like, and steps they take to address the complicated process of healing.

About Carling Middlestead:

Carling (she/her) is the producer and co-host of the I Did Not Sign Up For This Podcast. A proud member of the lgbtq+ community, dedicated aunt and step parent, and completely obsessed with her five dogs.

Her endless curiosity about the world around her allows her to connect with people and dive deep into any conversation, always willing to have her own beliefs and views challenged while challenging the way others may look at things.

Carling lives by the motto "Do your best until you know better, and then do better".

Resources Mentioned in This Episode:

3 things to do when someone you know is grieving:

Check in on them often
Go with the flow of their grief (if they want to laugh and have fun, or if they want to hide in blankets and cry)
Sitting in silence with them is powerful.

Carling’s favourite podcasts are:

The Daily
Office Ladies
I Did Not Sign Up For This (lol shameless plug!)
Anything by Wondery

—

Dawn Taylor - The Taylor Way: website | facebook | instagram | linkedin

Carling Middlestead - I Did Not Sign Up For This Podcast - Producer and Host: website | instagram | facebook | linkedin | tiktok

Transcript:

Dawn Taylor 00:09

Hey, hey, hey, welcome to the Taylor Talks podcast. This week, I am so honored to have the amazing Carling on this show. Carling Middlestead is the producer and co-host of I Did Not Sign Up For This podcast, a proud member of the LGBTQ+ community, dedicated aunt and step parent, and just an all around rock star. We are gonna deep dive into a really interesting topic that might be a bit triggering for people but it has to do with a dad and a death and a whole lot of fun stuff. So I challenge you to stick around. We're gonna do a fun giveaway at the end. And I can't wait to hear what you think of this podcast.

Dawn Taylor 00:53

Carling what would you love the world to start talking about?

Carling Middlestead 00:58

Oh boy, I want the world to talk more about grieving your parent that wasn't your superhero, that wasn't as amazing as everybody thinks.

Dawn Taylor 01:11

Right. So before we started recording this, we were chatting about this because I also wanted to parent in a similar situation, right? Where everybody else had them on a pedestal, it was amazing, it was beautiful, it was all of these things. And that wasn't the person I knew. That wasn't the person I had been raised by. So let's start with your childhood. What was your dad like? Talk to us about your dad.

Carling Middlestead 01:36

Yeah, my dad was funny, charismatic, outgoing, charming, the center of attention. You know, he was a narcissist and a businessman and a banker. And, you know, I think he wore many different hats. And I think lastly he was a father.

Dawn Taylor 01:56

Narcissist. That's a hard one.

Carling Middlestead 01:58

Yeah, you know, when I look back through his family I'm like, oh, my grandpa was a narcissist. Oh, you know, his brothers are narcissists. And yeah, it just ran in that family.

Dawn Taylor 02:12

So what was it like being raised by him?

Carling Middlestead 02:14

He wasn't very present in my life. It's really interesting, because I have an older sister, who's just not quite three years older. So you would think that we would have quite parallel experiences. But it was very different. He, my sister, the sun rose and set with my sister. And, you know, he even joked, like the family joke, that she was the golden child. And like, where did that leave me then? I was, you know, the opposite of that. And, you know, I can think even in home movies, I can look back and see, you know, where it's like the 80s and he's got his camcorder, and he's, you know, talking to my sister about something and then I teetle into frame and he shoos me away really quickly. And we have video evidence of the favoritism. And my dad was a woodworker, he was a very skilled artistic woodworker. And he, you know, he created - one of the examples - he created this incredible, I think it was oak box, like a memory box, or like a trunk for my sister. And he had it gold plated. And it said, like 'To Danica Love Dad', and the date and all this stuff. And I think maybe she was 16, so you know, I was just a couple years younger than that. And I was begging my dad to make me something. And I asked for a bench for my room, just like a simple bench so I could put my stuffed animals on it or something. And he didn't do it, he didn't do it, he didn't do it. And then finally, my mom one day was like, 'You need to get in that garage and, like, don't come out until you've made something for Carling'. And he like used some scrap wood, like it was just sort of put together it wasn't, you know, this craftsman piece of furniture that maybe he would have made for my sister. You know, and that was just like, for some reason that I will never know, my sister could do no wrong. And, you know, that in me developed somebody who was just always trying to get his approval and always trying to get his attention. And, you know, I just wanted to make him proud. And I just always fell short of it.

Dawn Taylor 04:28

Isn't that wild how those actions, like you can look back on it, and it just creates the biggest feeling of resentment. But also it's just pure rejection. Right? Which then like plays out in the rest of our lives, but let me tell ya...

Carling Middlestead 04:46

I mean, yeah, I would I would go on that later to - I'm a lesbian - but I would marry a man who is exactly like my father. And he ended up being abusive and horrible and, you know, closed that chapter on my life but yeah, like I was just seeking something from somebody that I never got from my father. And, you know, even maybe on his deathbed I got it. I don't know. But yeah, it's tough.

Dawn Taylor 05:14

So talk about the end when he got sick. Can I ask what he died of?

Carling Middlestead 05:20

Yeah, he had like a rare form. It was like acute leukemia, basically. And there was a slight chance that he might be qualified for like a bone marrow transplant. But they found a match and that was fine but he was so sick he wouldn't have survived the chemo required to do before. You know, he ended up passing before, you know, that process even started. Yeah, so he had, you know, his health had kind of been deteriorating for maybe, like, maybe a year not quite. And they couldn't quite figure out why. And he was always getting blood transfusions. And I had been working really hard on establishing boundaries within our relationship. And so I don't think I was very invested in what he was going through, and you know, what his experience was. And I think that came across probably to his wife and him and her family that I was quite cold. And then when he finally went into the hospital, they were allowed, you're allowed to visitors, so he picked his wife. And then he named me. And I was shocked. Because, like, I automatically I was like, oh, it'd be my sister. Like, that would make the most sense. And even, you know, in the hospital, he was like, you know, I thought about your sister. But, you know, she's so busy with the kids and her career and like, it was sort of this passive, like, he didn't consider my stepkids or my partner or my career or, but I was like, oh, okay. I'm your person, you know, so I sat with him every day for two weeks in the hospital, until he ended up getting moved to hospice. And then I sat with him every day at hospice. He was only in hospice for about five days before he passed away.

Dawn Taylor 07:06

Oh wow. So it was fast.

Carling Middlestead 07:08

Like very fast. Yeah. Yeah.

Dawn Taylor 07:11

How does your sister deal with not being the chosen one at the end?

Carling Middlestead 07:16

I think my sister is very, maybe similar to my dad. Like, I don't think she took it as negative on her. I think she was, I'm the emotionally stable, I'm the, you know, steadfast, hard working, can get through anything kid because I had to be.

Carling Middlestead 07:36

Yeah. And so, you know, I think I kept my sister really updated, but she was also really emotional. And I don't think her, you know, crumbling into a pile on the floor in the hospital room would have served anybody. And I think she recognized that, my dad recognized that, so I was sort of the messenger, you know, until he could go to hospice, and then everybody could visit him. But even then, like, her visits were pretty short. She's quite religious. So they were very sort of like religious focused, praying. Yeah, it was almost like, it was almost like she was there for her to say goodbye to her dad. And I was there to hold space and be witness to him passing over to the next thing, whatever you believe in. Yeah.

Dawn Taylor 07:36

Like, protection mechanism.

Dawn Taylor 08:24

So in that time, so this person who was rejected, you ignored you, pushed you away your entire life, how hard was it to sit there day after day after day? Because there's this interesting thing that no one talks about is you can love someone and hate them at the same time.

Carling Middlestead 08:42

Yeah, I don't think I--

Dawn Taylor 08:44

I'm not saying you hated him. Do you know what I mean? But like you can feel like a super positive and super negative emotion towards someone at the exact same time.

Carling Middlestead 08:53

Yeah. And what was really interesting was I had, because I had sort of drawn these boundaries with him where, you know, I wouldn't give him much detail about my life because it wouldn't faze him or he would dismiss it or criticize it. And I wouldn't, you know, I wasn't that involved in his life. And I would really, you know, have to be in the right frame of mind to visit with him before he got sick. And so, suddenly being with him every day for those three weeks, it was really interesting because I got to see who he was to so many people. I posted on Facebook with his permission that he was in the hospital and not doing well. And the people that came out of the woodworks to share stories about how he went out on a limb for them, advocated for them, you know, did a favor for them, gave his last whatever to them. And the people that came and visited him in hospice from his family doctor who cried with him, to, you know, like colleagues, and it was it was just so... I was like, Who? Who is this man to these people that I never got to have? That was never my experience with him. And so it was really interesting to sort of see, you know, I found myself feeling more sad for other people that they were losing him than I was sad for myself. I'm genuinely upset that my, I don't know, aunt or my grandma was there, his mom who's in her 90s, and I can't imagine watching my kid die. Like, that's not the way it should be, you know. And so I really found myself grieving for other people and being sad for other people for who they were losing, but not necessarily me for who I was losing.

Dawn Taylor 10:39

Okay, so we chatted about that a little bit before we got on here. And I know I had revealed to you that when my mum passed away, we had a really hard relationship. And one of the hardest things for me when she died, was this massive shame. It was 100% attached to the fact that I felt gratitude for the fact she had died. I can't believe I'm gonna say that on here. I did write about it in my book. So people have heard it before. But it was it was a thing, right? Because there were so many parts of my life that were so hard because of her and the same boundaries that had put into place, dealing with all of that. And she died in a car accident, it was very sudden, there was no chance of a goodbye. But the night before she died, we'd had a really bad conversation.

Carling Middlestead 11:30

Oh, wow.

Dawn Taylor 11:31

Where she told me she was going to divorce my dad, she was going to walk away, she just couldn't handle having a sick husband. He had been in a logging accident, there were complications after, and she was like, 'Nope, I'm going to just leave him and this is going to happen'. And I remember like one of the - I did say I love you at the end of the call. But our last conversation, I was like if you leave dad because he was in a logging accident, you're dead to me. Because I can't respect you anymore. And that's disgusting. And that was our last conversation. And she passed away the next morning on her way to work. And even in that, like, there's the grief of knowing that she was gone and I would never have her again, right? But a grief of like, I'll never get to know the mom I wanted to know. That was a huge piece of it. And I remember when I did her eulogy at her funeral, saying to my husband after, I really wish I had known the person that all of those people knew. Right? That my siblings knew, that her grandkids knew, that her friends and family and everybody else knew, because she was a perfect stranger to me in that way. And it felt like I was reading a eulogy for a stranger. Because that wasn't my experience. And it was hard. I don't know about you, did you find it hard with, like, the sympathy and the pity that came from people? And it's like, I didn't know that person.

Carling Middlestead 13:03

Yeah. And I think people, you know, just assume that your dad is your superhero, your dad is your rock, your dad is your guiding light, you know. I even looked up like quotes about dead dads and daughters. And, you know, I was like, no, none of this resonates with me because I didn't feel that. And so to do his eulogy, and his obituary, you know, I really wanted to, for him, you know, I didn't wish him ill will. I didn't hope he died. It, you know, it was just this like, weird, it was a balancing act of honoring who he was for all of these people and still leaving room for myself to feel like oh, like, Why? Why did I ever get that?

Dawn Taylor 13:49

What was the biggest thing that came out of that for you? Like the person who you wished you had known?

Carling Middlestead 13:54

Yeah, I think it's left me, no, it's left my inner child - I can distinctly tell the difference - it's left my inner child wondering, like, what was so wrong with me as a little kid? Because I look at little kids and I'm like, how can you favor one or the other? You know, I don't have my own biological kids. But I have nieces and nephews and and stepkids and I can't imagine doing things that would make them feel bad like that, you know? But I guess I'm not a narcissist is what my therapist always reminds me. So I wouldn't get it, you know? So that's probably a good thing. But, you know, the fact that I found myself advocating for this man who never advocated for me in my darkest time of need, and, you know, I was caring for and being tender with this man who was never caring and tender towards me. And it was, yeah, it was like a choice that I made, you know, I suppose I could have chosen to not, and to maybe reestablish a boundary. But I really felt like, that's not me, I would have I think regretted it more, maybe putting a big boundary up than not. But it sort of left me with this, what am I grieving? Who am I grieving?

Dawn Taylor 15:26

Oh, for sure. So what are some tips that you would have for our listener on how to grieve in a situation like that?

Carling Middlestead 15:34

I think, give yourself space. And I think I, you know, I talk a lot lately about sort of, like holding space for things. And I'm very good at filling space with all the things that keep me distracted from feeling certain things. But, you know, some days, I'm, like, really mad at him. And some days, I'm really sad for him. And some days, you know, I think just sort of like honoring the emotion that you're feeling in that moment or day and not expecting that you should be feeling a certain way. But just letting yourself like, live through that feeling. Because I think too often people think it's like, you know, however many stages of grief, it's not linear. And it's not, you know, it's somebody once told me grief is like a tiny ball in a box that's always bouncing. And at first, the box is really small and so every time that ball bounces and hits a side, it hurts. You know, and there are some days where my box is really big, and the ball barely bounces, and I don't even think about it. And then other days things happen and it feels like every single thing I do, I'm reminded about the fact that my dad is dead.

Dawn Taylor 16:47

One of my favorites is always like waves on the ocean. Right? And I use it with clients all the time, as, like when you first walk in, it just tickles your toes, right? And that's when you're in denial stages and stuff. But then you walk in, and you hit that point where it can like knock you on your butt. And the water's really intense. But that seventh wave comes and just plows you over. You have to push through the hard part, and you might be diving into those waves and fighting to get through them. But then all of a sudden, you get far enough out into the ocean, and all of a sudden it's just these beautiful giant swells. Right. Yeah?

Carling Middlestead 17:27

Yeah, that's a good analogy.

Dawn Taylor 17:29

And sometimes we just have that seventh wave day with those moments. So one of the hard parts of... so losing your dad, the person you didn't know he was, and now there's all these, like, almost character traits and stories out there about him of who he was. Do you struggle to believe that that's who he was?

Carling Middlestead 17:52

No, I think wholeheartedly that's a piece of who he was. I think being a narcissist, you know, he was very charming. And I don't know that, I think there was maybe an intention behind everything. He was very calculated and--

Dawn Taylor 18:08

-- incredibly calculated.

Carling Middlestead 18:09

Yeah, he was married six times. And I think it's because he was very good at being charming, but not very good at being himself long enough. Or maybe his true self would come out, I don't know. So I think, I choose, I'm actively choosing to enjoy those stories. Because that is that person's experience. And I am not going to go to that person and be like, well, that was actually a lie. That was their truth, that was their experience. And I think I could have very easily chosen to become really bitter and mad that I didn't get that, you know, I'm sad that I didn't get that piece of him. And I, you know, work with that. But I find myself choosing to appreciate those stories. And I think he wasn't married to this current wife very long, they were only married for three years, and so I also feel this sort of like she didn't, I think, you know, if you look at the movies and parents are married for 50 years, and then one of them dies, all of your memories still live in that home, that other parent, that other, you know, but like for her, they were only married three years. And I don't really know her or her family very well. But they had him high up on this pedestal. And they were sort of his, their memories with him are much different than his fifth wife or his fourth wife or all of these things. And so it's really seeking out the people that had these memories of him and just choosing to appreciate them rather than being bitter about them.

Dawn Taylor 19:48

Which is a really phenomenal way to look at it.

Carling Middlestead 19:50

Yeah, yeah, it's hard, but...

Dawn Taylor 19:53

Oh, it is, it's very hard. One of the things for me is as I was healing, and I would hear things about how she thought about me or felt about me or ,you know, just different things of my life. I was doing a big healing journey about eight months after she had, my mother, passed away. And I kept wanting, like, honest answers from people. I'd be like, no, no, I actually want to know what she thought of this, and I actually want to know what she said about me, and I, like, I need you to just take her off the pedestal for a second and have a brutally honest conversation with me, because this is part of my healing.

Carling Middlestead 20:27

Were you surprised?

Dawn Taylor 20:28

Not overly surprised. I was surprised at how they couldn't admit anything. Like just denied it. And I was like, but you know that this happened, like you were there. Like, you were in the room when she said this, I know that you know this. And they'd be like, no, that couldn't be what happened.

Carling Middlestead 20:51

It's like you were being gaslit by grief.

Dawn Taylor 20:53

I felt like I was so being gaslit by grief. Because nobody would open up. Nobody would be honest with me. Nobody would actually talk about it. And I was like, no, no, you can keep her on a pedestal - and I've always been open about the fact that my mom was an outstanding human, just not to me. So I was like, it doesn't take away from her amazingness if you tell me how she really was about me. And it was finally my mom's best friend, right from my childhood, that I phoned her in tears one day, and I was like, I just need to know her different. And I need to know what she said in your long conversations. And I need to know what her thoughts were on situations that went down in my life and on traumas that I had dealt with. And I said, I know this is really, really a hard ask, but would you be okay with me asking you and honestly answering these questions. And it's been really interesting, because she did. I finally had found somebody who was like, no, no, I can see the good and the bad in her. Right? Like, I experienced it, I saw it, I will be open with you about it. And it was so healing for me to have those answers.

Dawn Taylor 21:01

It was probably really validating, right. To have somebody witness? Yeah.

Dawn Taylor 22:07

Right? But it's been cool now, because her and I have stayed really close. I just got back from visiting her in northern BC a few weeks ago. And to this day, she's one of the only people that will even talk about my mom. Like, nobody even talks, it's the weirdest thing.

Carling Middlestead 22:23

Yeah, that's interesting.

Dawn Taylor 22:25

Yeah. And I've heard that a few times lately, that in grief people just stop talking. They don't... it's like, the pictures get put away, and the stories get put away, and they no longer discuss that person. It's like, no, they're dead, they're gone. Over. Where I'm like, no, no, like, she's still part of our lives. That was my mom. Right? Have you gone there? I know it's been fairly recent for you. But have you witnessed any of that in your own family?

Carling Middlestead 22:57

I - not so much the not talking. I thought it was interesting how many people, you know, sort of come out of the woodworks and say, we're going to have to keep in touch, we're going to have, and then after the funeral nobody keeps in touch and nobody reaches out, which I think is okay. Like, I don't want to sort of have these contrived relationships with people just for the sake of keeping my dad's memory alive. But I think, yeah, I find myself, what I didn't expect, I find myself like thinking, oh, I should pick up the phone and call him. And when he was alive, I worked so hard not to do that, because I was trying so hard to hold a boundary, because I always ended up disappointed in the outcome of seeking his approval. Or, you know, trying to have a conversation about anything to do with me. And, you know, like, I just got a new job. And this morning, I was like, shoot I really just have this urge, I like get choked up thinking about it, to just call him and tell him. And I posted something on Facebook and people, I was kind of snarky about it in my head, because people were like, oh, he would have been so proud of you. And I was like--

Dawn Taylor 22:58

No, he wouldn't.

Carling Middlestead 23:06

I don't know that he would have or if he was he wouldn't tell me. You know, like, you know, he would have looked for a way to brag about it, to show that he was such a good father, because he had a daughter who just got this job, you know, not look at my daughter but look at me, the father of this daughter. And so I was sort of like, Oh, I really want to call him and I was sort of laughing because I probably would have been crying anyway, because I would have called and the conversation wouldn't have gone the way that I hoped and I wouldn't gotten his approval the way that I wanted. And then I'd be just as upset as not being able to call him because he's dead. You know, like, it's--

Dawn Taylor 24:48

So true. It's so true. One of the things that someone told me years after my mom died was, create in your head the mom you wish she had been. Like take the best parts of who she was and write that down and rewrite the description of who your mom is. To, like, recreate that story of who she is, and then talk to her. And so one of the things I did for a long time was I had a journal, and it was like a two way journal in my head of, like, this is me writing her letters, but not getting the flack of what her reaction would have been. So even now, sometimes I'll be like, Mom, you'd be so proud of me, you'll never believe what I did today. Right? And I'll just like, write it out, or I'll speak it out. And be like, yeah, I did. Or, like, if you could see how this person has turned out, you'd be shocked. But even, like, as my nieces and nephews have graduated or are getting married or going to school, I'd be like, Mom, you would have been in the front row at that wedding, like, just crying and beaming at your beautiful granddaughter. And it's allowed me to - people listening are probably like, what? - but it's allowed me to almost recreate the story of me and my mom. In an interesting way, right? So it's like, no, no, no, she's still actually part of my life in a weird way. But I've recreated what that would look like. And it's, it gives me this really cool sense of still getting that 'you did good, kid' kind of feel, like that affirmation that you are looking for the whole time.

Carling Middlestead 26:24

Yeah, that's interesting. I would, in my first instinct, thinking of myself doing that, is I would get maybe, like, salty about it. Because that wasn't the truth. You know what I mean? Like, I'm giving him the benefit of--

Dawn Taylor 26:40

Oh, I wrote, I wrote nasty letters in there. Con't think in my healing journey, I have not gotten real pissed at her.

Carling Middlestead 26:50

Yeah. Yeah, I know one time in the hospital, he said he was sorry for not being a better father. And I remember just being like, what do I even say to that? Like, he doesn't know what that means. He doesn't know. He just, I think, recognized that we didn't have as good of a relationship, as maybe he hoped. But I don't even think he knew what it was that didn't make him a good father. And so I was like, 'It's okay.' But I don't know, what do you say to somebody on their deathbed who apologizes for--

Dawn Taylor 27:24

I refuse your apology?

Carling Middlestead 27:26

Yeah. Like, I'll think about it. I don't know.

Dawn Taylor 27:30

I'll you know next week. Not totally sure how I feel about it. No, it is a super interesting one. What are the best words of advice you've been given in the few months you've had? What are the best words of advice you've been given around grieving? Because that is something we're not taught how to do.

Carling Middlestead 27:48

Yeah, people think that, I don't know, people just think that grief is like linear, or, you know, now that they're dead you don't talk about it. And it's probably best just not to bring it up. But I think just, like, the best piece of advice was just sort of like honor - you know, like I said earlier - honor how you're feeling in any moment, you know, on the first Father's Day, I wasn't sure how I'd feel. And my partner lost her dad when she was a teenager. And so we joke that we're part of the dead dad club. And, you know, and we ended up, we had to go to the dump so we had, like, a truck full of stuff. And we were like, figures we'd have to do this, our dads are dead. You know, and we just, we really brought this sense of humor about it. And after everything, we'd be like, well, our dads are dead. And that really, I think, got me through that day, because we were finding a lot of humor in it. And then, you know, there were other days where out of the blue, because it was a Tuesday, well, I was really sad and crying and a song would come on and I am I never cried, you know, I just didn't want to cry, didn't want to draw attention, but I'm like, letting myself cry and letting myself feel sad.

Dawn Taylor 29:01

Good for you.

Carling Middlestead 29:02

Yeah, and it's really hard. It's hard, it's not just as easy as just letting out the emotion that you're feeling. But it's okay to laugh about it sometimes. And it's okay to cry about it sometimes. And I think it's okay to admit that you didn't have, like, I think my sister's posted a lot about like, my dad was my hero. And I am who I am because of him. And I think that's her truth. But like, I'm not going to post that, I'm not going to post these big sappy memorial posts on Facebook or Instagram or anything. And that's okay. I think I was maybe like, Oh, should I write something, should I... but I was like, no, I'm not going to fake grieve him.

Dawn Taylor 29:03

That's not authentic.

Carling Middlestead 29:07

Yeah, yeah. It didn't feel authentic. And, you know, I don't think people... I would wonder how many people I see posting about the death of a parent, how true it is when they sort of glorify this person after their death, because it maybe wasn't that great. And that's okay.

Dawn Taylor 30:04

But we feel like we should. Right? Like we should glorify it, and we should go there. One other thing I would say about grieving as, like you said, everyone comes out of the woodwork at first, there's all the things. Right? But if you genuinely - not that if you don't, you don't care if you don't do this - but everybody's there for the first six weeks. You get a lot of attention and a lot of love and a lot of everything for six weeks. Show up at the six week mark. Right? Like, that's when you need to show up for your friend. Or for your family member, is when everybody else, it seems like everyone else has moved on, life has continued, you're just getting over almost the shock of it all and dealing with the aftermath of things. And all of a sudden, you sit back and you're like, holy, I just lost how many weeks of my life and not in a bad way. But like, I'm just now at this point where it's like, holy now I have to figure this out. Yeah, it was. It's a very lonely feeling.

Carling Middlestead 31:06

Yeah, it's yeah, it's really lonely. And I think people just think to themselves, like, oh, I don't... I don't know. Like, it's like people have good intentions. And I don't think those people were lying when they said let's keep in touch. I think you know, their intentions were probably really great. But I think people should consider reaching out on those anniversaries. The first birthday, the first Father's Day, the first, my first birthday, what's that going to be like? Yeah, and just I think, just because I don't post that I'm sobbing and sad every day. Doesn't mean that it wouldn't be nice for somebody just to reach out and check in.

Dawn Taylor 31:47

100%. I know I thought after I was like, never again, will I when someone dies, go, 'Oh, my goodness, yes, we need to get together.' Right? Like, ever. It's like, I am so sorry. Done, and bring the person up. Bring the person up. Ask questions. I love when someone is like, tell me about your mom. What was she like? And I can laugh about how crazy she she was, and I can laugh about all the funny stuff. But my mom was - like I said - she was an outstanding human. Just not to me. Right? So she taught me so much about loving people, and hospitality, and like gardening and the love of laughter and all of these things that she taught me so much in her life, right? And I can take those, I can take those and be so grateful for them. So even to this day, when someone is like, what was your mom like? I'm like, let me show you a photo. Let's have an honest conversation about what she was like, and experience her together. And I think that that's something people forget is yes, we lost them, and yes, it's hard. But there's nothing worse than forgetting them.

Carling Middlestead 33:00

Yeah, I think people get uncomfortable with grief. And especially if they're not super close to somebody, they don't know how to sort of, like, hold that space for them.

Dawn Taylor 33:11

Oh, 100% 100%. Right? They don't they don't know how to hold that space for them. So we talked earlier about just like, holding space, what does that mean for you? For someone to hold space for you, what does that mean? How do they, like, literally what does someone do? Because this is a term that gets used, and I always joke about like hating the self-help industry for that. Because there's all these like vague, weird terms and concepts, but no one actually tells you, like, what to literally do? How does somebody hold space for someone in grieving?

Carling Middlestead 33:48

Yeah, I mean, I think, you know, starting with when my dad was in the hospital and hospice, holding space for him - which a lot of people I realized couldn't do - was just sitting in the room with him. You don't have to say anything, you don't have to talk, you don't have to be doing anything. It's just literally sitting there so that they're not alone while they die. And there were so many people that would come in and I was blown away that they couldn't help but talk to every single person in the room that was sitting there to make sure there was always somebody talking, when I think it was actually more just about sitting there and just letting, dying is a not great process, and I think you just don't want to be alone. And then I think for people that are grieving, holding space is meeting them where they're at. My best friend lost her husband three years ago, and so holding space in the early days was, like, one day she would literally be laughing about something and so I would laugh too, and then the next day she would be so angry. And so I would be angry with her or facilitate the thing that she was angry about. And it's just sort of like not trying to fix or not trying to take somebody from one state of mind to another. And if I'm just crying because I'm sad, that's okay. You, like your job is not to stop me from crying. Your job is to just let me cry, hand me a Kleenex, and then when I start laughing - because I'll probably start laughing in a few minutes - pick up there and, you know, start laughing with me. But yeah, I think people too often want to, like, 'Oh, somebody's crying, I should hug them', or leave and let them cry alone. Rather than just like, just sit with them. It's okay if somebody's crying. They need to, it's therapeutic.

Dawn Taylor 35:36

It's actually really healthy.

Carling Middlestead 35:37

It's really cleansing. I can't believe I'm saying that because I was the one that never cried. But now I just cry at everything.

Dawn Taylor 35:45

Not a bad thing. One other thing I would add to that is show up in different ways. So it doesn't mean, don't buy flowers, con't send a deli platter in the first week. Like, none of that matters. None of that matters. Hire like a house cleaner to show up three weeks later, when they're in the depths of their grief, and their toilets need to be scrubbed. Do things like that. Just like super basic, super basic fundamental things. Go to their house and fold their laundry. Invite yourself over for coffee sometimes. And look around and really just be like, okay, how can I love on them even more right now?

Carling Middlestead 36:30

Yeah. And, I think, keep inviting them out, right?

Dawn Taylor 36:34

Oh, even like, if they say no 100 times.

Carling Middlestead 36:37

Yeah. Invite them every time.

Dawn Taylor 36:38

Invite them every time, even if you know you're gonna get a no, because you don't know the