Taylor Way Talks

Why you would want to listen to this episode…Dr. Jody Carrington has seen the scene play out many times in her sit-downs with her clients. They all seek to be happy. After all, who wouldn’t want that for their own lives? However, many people interpret happiness as the only good emotion a person should ever experience. Dr. Jody and Dawn both believe that life is more than just happiness, and it’s the experience of other emotions that make our humanity whole. In today’s episode, they dissect what it truly means to be happy and what difference it has over being satisfied, fulfilled and complete. Who is this for…For anyone who has struggled to make sense of the complexity of human emotion, it can be difficult to juggle everything - good or bad. As these emotions pass through us, we’re sometimes left with more questions than answers. This episode of The Taylor Way Talks is for those of us who are after the recognition, regulation and control of our emotions as we make our way through life’s highs and lows. Guest BioDr. Jody Carrington is a renowned psychologist sought after for her expertise, energy and approach to helping people solve their most complex human-centred challenges. Jody focuses much of her work around reconnection – the key to healthy relationships and productive teams. As a bestselling author, speaker, and leader of Carrington & Company, Jody uses humour, and all she has learned in her twenty-year career as a psychologist to empower everyone she connects with. In her latest book, Feeling Seen, she dives into what it takes to reconnect a disconnected world. Jody’s message is as simple as it is complex: we are wired to do the hard things, but we were never meant to do any of this alone.Guest LinksInstagram - https://instagram.com/jodycarringtonFacebook - https://www.facebook.com/drjodycarrington  LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/dr-jody-carrington/  Everyone Comes From Somewhere Podcast - https://podcasts.apple.com/ca/podcast/everyone-comes-from-somewhere/id1  About Dawn TaylorDawn Taylor is the professional ass-kicker, hope giver, life strategist, trauma specialist, and all-around badass. Dawn's journey into helping others heal began when she took her personal recovery from the trauma she experienced in her life into her own hands. While at times unconventional, Dawn’s strategic methods have helped hundreds heal from traumas such as issues related to infidelity,  overcoming addiction,  working through PTSD from sexual, emotional, and physical abuse, as well as helping cult survivors thrive. Dawn’s work has empowered entrepreneurs, stay-at-home moms, and CEOs alike to be superheroes in their own lives. Having completed thousands of hours of training from many professional programs, including the Robbins Madanes Training Institute, Dawn’s blunt honesty will challenge your thinking, broaden your awareness, and help you achieve the outstanding results you are worthy of.Connect with Dawn here at The Taylor Way: Consultation Call | Website | Facebook | Instagram | LinkedInGet to know Dawn on a deeper level through her book! Order HereP.S. I Made It, is a powerful story that grabs you through its lack of pretension and honesty. Every page reveals another layer of curious wonder at both Dawn’s life and the power of hope that moves within each of us. Dawn’s hope is that you use this book as a resource to deal with your struggles. Share it with someone who needs it. We all want to feel like someone understands what it’s like to suffer through something and – come out the other side. She describes her life as “horrifically beautiful and beautifully horrific.  Thanks for listening!Thanks so much for listening to our podcast! If you enjoyed this episode and think that others could benefit from listening, please share it using the social media buttons on this page. Do you have some feedback or questions about this episode? Leave a comment in the section below!Follow the podcastIf you want to receive new podcast episodes automatically, you can follow us on Apple Podcasts or in your favourite podcast app.Please leave us an Apple Podcasts reviewRatings and reviews from our listeners are extremely valuable to us and greatly appreciated. They help our podcast rank higher on Apple Podcasts, which exposes our show to more awesome listeners like you. If you have a minute, please leave an honest review.Views Expressed, Legal and Medical DisclaimerThis podcast (including any/all site pages, blog posts, blog comments, forums, videos, audio recordings, etc.) is not intended to replace the services of a physician, nor does it constitute a doctor-patient relationship. Information is provided for informational purposes only and is not a substitute for professional medical advice. You should not use the information on this podcast for diagnosing or treating a medical or health condition. If you have or suspect you have an urgent medical problem, promptly contact your professional healthcare provider. Any application of the recommendations in this podcast/website is at the listener/reader's discretion. The views and opinions expressed are those of guests and do not necessarily reflect the opinion or policy of Dawn Taylor, The Taylor Way and or its Associates. The before mentioned are not liable for any direct or indirect claim or loss.   TranscriptDawn TaylorI am your host, Dawn Taylor. And today I have the honor of talking to the amazing Doctor Jody Carrington. So what are we going to be talking about today? Happiness should not actually be the end goal in life. I know, I know, right? So let's all be offended by that. Before we get started, I just want to tell you a little bit about our guest so you guys can be as pumped as I am about this. Doctor Jody is a renowned psychologist. She does courses and written books, and she's a leader of Carrington and Company. She's funny as hell. She's sassy, she's unconventional and authentic and real and she's amazing. She's had a 20 year career as a psychologist, and she's all about, how do we connect? How do we connect to people, our culture, everything, anything and everything within that and that we're not meant to do this world alone. And so I personally saw her speak at an event a few weeks ago and may have kind of harassed her after I've been like, “I want you on my podcast and I want you to talk.” So here she is. She actually said yes. And welcome to the show, Doctor Jody Carrington.   Dr. Jody CarringtonOh, Dawn Taylor, come on. I am so excited to be here. And I am, and I'm very ready to have a heart conversation that you're so good at around here. So let's do it.   Dawn TaylorThank you. So everything in life is these days. It feels like to me is totally guided towards like this toxic positivity self-help. And it's like, “Oh, I'm not fulfilled. Oh, I'm not happy. Oh I'm not whatever.” So let's get divorced one more time. Let's shift my career again. Let's change everything again. More plastic surgery, more, more everything. Right? Because we're so just determined that happy has to be the end goal. What are your thoughts on that?   Dr. Jody CarringtonWell, I mean, let's come out of the gate hot. Um, all right. Dawn TaylorWe're going to start real quiet. We're going to start real gentle on this one   Dr. Jody CarringtonI love it, I love it. Listen, um, here's what I know to be true to the core of me that I have not met a human that does not have the capacity for good. And I think so many of us, I mean, I talk about this often, you know, I have assessed and I've treated over a thousand people in this country, and I've never not one time a bad human. I've met a lot of people that have lost access to the best parts of themselves. And how we lose access to the best parts of ourselves happens in places where, you know, unprocessed experiences or traumas or stories that live in our heads, that, you know, we haven't had the chance to work through or process or really question because they've stayed pretty stuck in, in the way of operating every day. And one of those things that I think stays pretty true to many of us in this country is the need to be or the expectation that we'll be happy. And, you know, as a child psychologist, I've often asked parents, you know, what is your one wish for your child? And many people will finish this sentence like this, “I just want my baby to be happy.” And I mean, I've said that too. As a mum. I have three kids, you know, our twins are 11 or well, this is 13 and like it is the most difficult job on the planet. I just, I worry much more about them than I worry about anything else in, you know, in my world. And I really just want them to be happy. And I think the elusiveness of happiness for all of us these days leaves us very concerned that we're not doing it right. The vast, the biggest feeling that so many of us feel these days is loneliness. And loneliness certainly is not synonymous with happy. Um, when we see an increase in anxiety and depression, particularly in our kids, we’re like, “Oh my goodness, they're not happy.” Here's my wish for every human being. Is that we have the capacity to feel all the emotions because happy and sad, depressed, guilt, shame, remorse, all of those things are just that. They're just emotions. And when you have the capacity to feel them all, the script to feel them all, you will be among the most healthiest in our planet.   Dawn Taylor  I love that you say that.   Dr. Jody CarringtonYeah. The issue is you can't. We don't have a script for futility or loss or sadness. And when we really just focus on keeping everybody happy, particularly our kids, giving everybody a medal or letting people down softly or whatever the deal is, we lose the capacity for our ability to handle futility, which is part, you know, conflict is part of every healthy relationship. One of the greatest predictors of couples that make it and couples that don't in the marital space that Gottman have come up with this after 45 years of research. It comes down to this. It's not how much sex you have or, uh, how much you fight or you don't, or how much money you have. It comes down to one thing - your capacity to repair, your capacity to sit in with those emotions. Not if but when shit goes south and you can't teach your babies, uh, you can’t tell them how to do it, right. You got to show them. And so our ability to lean into those all of those emotions, not just, stay hellbent. Unhappy is so important. And so here's your full permission to do that.   Dawn TaylorSo I often use the metaphor of a rainbow, where it's like we're so focused on feeling like, I just want to feel passionate and excited and and success and all of these things all the time. And I'm like, yeah, but that's like having one color to a rainbow. It's beautiful because it has all of them. A piano is amazing because it has multiple scales and when played together and used together is when it creates the most beautiful music.   Dr. Jody CarringtonMhm.   Dawn TaylorAnd I think access to all of them and the ability on how to deal with them. And we've become so scared of our negative emotions, that we run from them. We run from them constantly medicate ourselves from them. We're so scared of them. I remember a client years ago, she's like, “Dawn, I can't sit in my heart, I can't, I can't.” And I said, “Okay, so I want you to do me a favor.” And she goes, “What?” And I said, “I want you to set a timer. And I want you to just feel it. The thing that you run from that makes you drink a bottle of wine. I said, I can sit on Zoom with you while you do it if you want, but I want you to just sit with it. Just sit with it and feel it.” And she's like, “what if it kills me?” And I was like, “here's the cool thing no emotion has ever killed a person.” That's right. Oh, and I said, but we also have to remember that no emotion is permanent. They're not permanent. And I said, “So just sit with it. Just sit with it and play with it like a train driving through it, going through the station.” And just like let your thoughts go where your thoughts go in your fields, go where your fields go and just see what happens and look at it with no judgment, just curiosity and just in awe of where it goes. And I said, and see what happens. I said, set a timer on it. Set a timer on it for like an hour. Just like I'm going to sit there for one hour. I said, you've watched a bad TV show for an hour before,   Dr. Jody CarringtonAnd I would say an hour's way too long. So here's the interesting thing is that very few of us have the capacity to be still for 20 seconds. What I think is really critical in this moment, right. Is that so many of us, we're the first generation of parents, we're the first generation of humans that have had this much access to data to noise. We never get a break. So, you know, I have to ask. I think we asked this question, you know, where do you charge your phone? And so many of us, you know, me included by our beds, which means that, you know, in the middle of the night, if you wake up, the capacity just to sort of replay the day or feel the emotions or figure out what you're going to do next is so easily thwarted by just scrolling Instagram even at 3:00 in the morning, and then in the morning when you sort of get up and you think about your day and it makes you feel like, oh, Christ, so you're gonna just check your emails or do the things that kind of interrupt that thought process. And what happens in this moment if we think about even just, you know, one generation ago, our bodies are not. Scripted for this quite yet. And so the necessity of introducing this concept of even just seconds in a day, right? Seconds in a day of dropping your shoulders of, you know, I for a very long time, I've talked a lot about, um, the concept of meditation. So eastern philosophical practices have long been the place that has, um, touted some of the healthiest practices on the planet that decade after decade, century after century, we always go back to. And it often comes back to the very basics, right? Which is that when your body is in a state of calm, you have access to the best parts of you. And when we are in our most dysregulated state, we lose access, not our ability. We lose access to the best parts of ourselves. So when we have so many opportunities to get away from, that will take it. Because the hardest thing we will ever do is sit in that stillness. So if we know that to be true. If we know that is the fact. If we know that even in this one generation, we're completely out of practice in that regard, our expectations of ourselves, just to be able to do this for five seconds. 20 seconds and, you know, I mean, after the talk that you were at. You know, I often have this conversation about all I want you to think about is putting the word “shoulders” on a sticky note, put it on your computer, on your bathroom mirror, um, because the body keeps the score. Bessel van der Kolk has written one of the finest books on trauma. It's called The Body Keeps the Score.   Dawn TaylorOh. It's amazing.   Dr. Jody CarringtonYeah. And and it often talks about the importance, right, of how you can cognitively work through anything you want. That's irrelevant to me. Completely irrelevant. The definition of trauma, of course, as you know, is not what happens to you.It's what happens inside of me as a result of what happens to you. And so we can spend a lot of time on the logistics of what happened to you, which is always very important part of the story. But what matters most to me in this process is what happens to you when you think about these things, when you go still in your body, and can you get into the state of just dropping your shoulders? So when you see that cue, you know, shoulders, all I want you to do is you sort of suggested to your client is just notice, just notice what is in that moment. Because oftentimes there is no fix for it other than to reconnect the mind and the body. And so when you do those two things, um, you put your body back into the state of emotional calmness or emotional regulation that then opens up all the access to the best parts of us.   Dawn TaylorI started a practice years ago. And side note with that client, she did that and she called me after laughing because she's like, it just kind of came and it went and the emotion went with it. She's like, that was really weird. And she started it as a regular practice to just like sit and sit with her feels to get comfortable with them. And I was like just kind of rumbling them, like, invite them in to hang out, like you're having a coffee date. So yes, I challenge people to try, but I started a practice years ago where I turned off all my notifications on my phone at all times, so it doesn't matter. Even if I glance at her, I look at it. I think the only one that still pops up is for garbage day, because I need that one, and it's once a week, but there's no notifications and I don't remember the last time my ringtone was  On. Idon't, and I offer my clients unlimited texting and emails and different things, and they know my hours that I take those and stuff, but I'm like, no, no, no, because I can then choose. When I look at it, I can choose when I go to it. And I would challenge anyone listening to do the same thing is even acknowledging those moments of when you walk into the grocery store and you're standing in the lineup, instead of picking up your phone to scroll. Just look around. Right. Look around and just. Just sit there. It's a safe way to just hang out with yourself. In a totally different way. But just like standing in a lineup at a grocery store. Dr. Jody Carrington  Yeah, I know, and it is, you know, driving in silence is another one that is really scary for people sometimes. I saw this meme not very long ago or was like that, you know, we saw this guy at Starbucks the other day and he was like, no phone, no computer, no nothing. He was just sitting there drinking coffee like a creep. And I was like, right. So, like, we don't have a plan for that. And I think that, you know, again, I think it's just those little things that, you know, sometimes can feel really big to sort of engage in a meditative practice every single day, to be able to do those things. But I just want you to think about, you know, getting your body back into that state of emotional regulation that can just be so critical in this time of busyness and overwhelm.   Dawn TaylorSo can you define emotional regulation from your standpoint? Because everyone there's all these like verbiage in terms out there that a lot of people just don't understand. But  they go, aha, yeah. Aha, I know what that is. And they actually have no idea - to you what is emotional regulation? Dr. Jody CarringtonHow not to lose your friggin mind. How to stay calm in times of distress. So the greatest capacity for, I think, the most successful leaders among us, when we are pushed up against the wall as parents, is that we will all the time emotionally be feeling incompetent and overwhelmed. The ability to regulate emotion is something that is in our bones, because as human beings, we all start in exactly the same place. We hear the very first sound that any of us feel is the heartbeat of our moms. And I often say, whether she's alive or you have a relationship with her or not, your capacity for emotional regulation is in your bones. It's that capacity to slow down in that rhythmic exchange. Often what we do, with the crying baby. So it's a universal response to a crying infant when they're losing their mind. If you have never, regardless of age, race, religion, socioeconomic status, gender identity, if you come upon a crying infant on this globe, you are biologically wired. If you are regulated to pick up that baby and engage in a rhythmic exchange, even if you've never, ever had a baby, if I watch a grandpa or an old papa, you know who hasn't changed a bum in years? Or maybe never? Uh, you put a crying infant in their arms and very quickly there's a rhythmic exchange that happens often, huh? Uh, and that's in our bones. Because when we're most distressed, what we don't need is somebody to tell us what to do. We need somebody, the physical presence of another to show us. And we never, ever outgrow that. And the more disconnected we are. So we're the first generation of people that are so wildly disconnected.   Dawn TaylorHorribly disconnected. Dr. Jody CarringtonSo the response then often is we're in a mental health crisis. And I actually don't think that's what's happening. I think we're in a loneliness epidemic because this is an appropriate response to being very disconnected from other people. And so the response then isn't, you know, we get very worried. Is it the government or what is the administration going to do or how are we going to superintendent, you know, the president of the organization? Uh, we're not going to live that long, um, to be able to see, um, the rest of us catch up because we're playing by a set of rules that was established for a world that no longer exists. And, we have changed so dramatically in this one generation, and technological advances aren't the problem, it’s how we use them. That is the issue because despite the fact that we're neurobiological wired for connection, the hardest thing we will ever do is look into the eyes of the people we love and we lead. And now we've been given so many exit ramps that we will take them, and we're losing skill in the ability to just be kind, to slow down long enough. And so we won't have the senior leadership positions held by the vast majority of leaders these days come with that set of rules in their bones. And it wasn't bad. It used to work. But the point is, now we are leading people who feel so empty and unseen that being able to initiate a relationship first approach of being kind and not tolerating bullshit in that order is sort of the new set of rules that we play by often around here. And, um, you know, when I wrote Feeling Seen, it was often about this conversation of, you know, rules still apply to everybody. If everybody gets a medal, it's a waste of time because we need a script for futility. But the issue is kindness, the capacity to engage in relationship first with your kids, your partner, particularly with the ones who don't seem to deserve it because the ones who need it the most are the hardest to give it to.   Dawn TaylorAlways. Always. It breaks my heart when and I have clients online. I have clients in person, probably like you do. It breaks my heart when someone contacts me in. The first question they ask is, are you willing to see me in person?   Dr. Jody CarringtonMhm. Dawn TaylorYes, yes. You can come to my office. They're like oh okay. And that it breaks my heart and it breaks my heart for a lot of industries and a lot of things. And I think that with the disconnect over these last two years, like working from home is amazing and yet it's created more disconnect. My husband and I were talking while we were driving yesterday. We drove two hours to hang out for three with his brother and wife and kids because we're like, no, no, no, we want to connect. I want to play with your toddler. I want to wrestle and tickle and hug and cuddle. And, you know, he made a comment. He's like, “I love that you didn't even go check your phone once or pick it up once.” And I said, “Well, no, because I don't want her to think that I live on my phone.” Dr. Jody CarringtonMhm.   Dawn TaylorRight. I want her to know that Auntie Dawn is the one that'll go to her room and giggle and tickle and wrestle with her and throw her on the bed and laugh and hug her and play like that is what I desire her to know me as.   Dr. Jody CarringtonRight, right. Yeah, right.   Dawn TaylorNot another parent watching TV or another parent on their phone or another parent. That's not a bad bash to anyone who is doing that. But there is a lack of presence. There is a total lack of presence happening. And yeah, what are some ways that you can see or just some easy, tangible things for people as saying that could be like,” Oh, there is one tiny shift I could do in work at home, with my kids, with my spouse. To engage in a different way.” Because often the loneliest people are the people that are the busiest and have a million friends and family members and people everywhere, and they still feel completely alone.   Dr. Jody CarringtonYou know, it's interesting. It reminds me of this conversation we were having this past week around artificial intimacy, the new AI. And, um, you know, there's lots of conversation, a beautiful book that was initiated, you know, has initiated many of these conversations called Artificial Intimacy. And it's really this concept of, you know, we have a thousand friends on Facebook, but nobody to feed our dog. We have, you know, we chase a million likes in the run of a day. But like, you know, when I come home and I need to get my kid to hockey practice, it's like, who do I call? And I think that, um, I think what is so critically important is fostering those relationships in your community on purpose, and also the thing that makes it quite easy for me to remember this sometimes is that the bar is so low. So it's not just you and me, you know, feeling this, right? You give somebody a compliment in the line at the grocery store or at the hockey rink, or you buy somebody's coffee in the lineup behind you at Tim Hortons. Right? It is remarkable what will happen. And in order to do those things, you see sort of like this 007 trick, because in order to do those things, you have to be emotionally regulated. And so if we make it a goal on our part to be able to sort of build our own community up, to be able to be the one that, you know, gives out a compliment, even on our shittiest moments in the days that we feel like we don't, you can have an awful day for the vast majority of your day. Feel every bit of it, but your only job is to give two compliments a day. I know when you switch into that mode, you're pulling your prefrontal cortex on, and it is allowing then us to build the communities, to build the connections in a community and some of the healthiest among us, like if we look at the data, um, Susan Pinker's written a beautiful book. She's a Canadian psychologist, and she talks about how in the blue zone. So some of the most you know, the centurions, the ones who lived beyond 100 years in a healthy way. Um, the greatest predictor of longevity isn't necessarily. In fact, it's not how fat you are or how much you drink or, um, how much you smoke or don't smoke. The greatest predictor of longevity is social reciprocity in your community. So people in the blue zone, for example, uh, on the island of Corsica, off of Italy, they live close together. Uh, their access to steel, to their daily functioning, like going to the post office. They get bread, fresh bread every day. They go get their milk. And they have to not necessarily have a bunch of close friends, but they have the social reciprocity with people that's checking on them. Hey, I didn't see you come by for your milk today. Uh, how are things going? Or did you make it for coffee or did you do those things? And so those social engagements become some of the most important things. And now that we can do many of these things post-Covid, in particular from home ordering our groceries, you don't have to go to Costco because there's too many people, which means we don't take our kids on Costco trips, which is a rite of passage. You should have a meltdown in Costco with your toddler at least three times, you know? And like all of those things become really critical because you can't tell somebody how to navigate those experiences. You've got to show them. And I think that on purpose choice to be able to play cards with your neighbors on the weekends too. I was too tired to go to the movie, or we're too tired or whatever. Being able to sort of do some of those things, not all of them, but some of those things on purpose, will serve the next generation well, because the concern for me isn't necessarily us. It is so much about what the babies coming behind us are watching.   Dawn TaylorI love that you said on purpose. Right and doing things on purpose. It's so hard to naturally, so I come from a background where and for anyone who's read my book or knows anything about my personal story, I was born to a mom who tried to miscarry me her entire pregnancy. So I struggle with bonding a connection. My entire life. It's just been this ongoing battle that I've had my entire life. And one of the things that I have done is I have an on purpose in my calendar of like, “No, no, no, I'm going to make time not just for a zoom date with someone, but I'm going to like, I will drive to your house.” I will, like, let's meet somewhere and do something that's spend time together on purpose. But I track it. I make sure in my calendar that there's so many connection points in a week where it's like, no, no, no, I need this. Like I need this, scheduling dates with my husband. I mean, we've been together 28 years. Do we still need to schedule dates? Probably not, but yeah, we do, because the disconnect can happen. And you know, we're walking into 20. Yeah. We're almost at 28 years together on in like two weeks. Which is incredible. And 24 married in May. And we just had a conversation about it where we're like, no, we need to like, schedule time together again because we're both passionate about what we do, and we both have careers and we both have lives, and we have totally different hobbies. And we now have like time blocked in our calendars. And he's like, I hate that it feels so awkward, like it's an appointment or a meeting. He's like, but we have reconnected more in the last two months of doing that than we have in probably the last year. Yeah, because it's intentional actions. Intentional behaviors. We're doing it on purpose, right?   Dr. Jody Carrington  Good for you. Yeah. That's amazing. I mean, I struggle with this all the time. And I think that, um, I think that's part of it, you know, is, is really that idea of we're also exhausted. So being able to schedule things on purpose, even a bit in and of itself feels like I can't even do that. Like I'm failing at that too. It's almost like another expectation that we also can't get right, you know, so I, you know, I think it is so critically important in this space to, to give ourselves some grace. I am amazed all the time at how much rest it takes to compensate for what our bodies are set to navigate this season. So, we have so much. Our kids have so much access to us now, which is, I mean, beautiful in so many ways. But it's also, I know when we have a phone, we have our Apple Watches on all those things. If I miss a phone call, I'm going to get buzzed on my wrist. Right. And our parents also never had this much access in previous generations. Right. And so in the run of a day, I can, you know, in an hour, I get a phone call from the school saying, you know, mom, I'm feeling anxious. I don't know what to do about these feelings, which I love. I created this monster. And then my dad, who's struggling with dementia, is like, hey, I just don't know how to get the curling on. Okay? So if we think about just one generation ago, we talk about this, you know, often when our parents would go to work, they would go to work. It would be very difficult to get a hold of them. If there was an emergency, for sure. There would be very many channels that you could do that. But at the end of the day, a 40 hour workweek made a lot of sense because things were done. Nobody could get you, your clients, your patients. Your customers couldn't get you once you entered the threshold of, you know, the sanctity of your home. And many of us now work from home, many of us, you know, check our email before we get up, even though we say we won't, we get something in the middle of the night and we're like, you know, we want to be really helpful because, you know, this is where our identities live as first responders or as clinicians or teachers. You know, we fall in love with the people that we, you know, serve in this regard, because we're worried about their safety and their physical well-being and their emotional well-being and all those things. And so there is a cost to that, that we haven't quite negotiated yet, because when we still consider  it necessary to be at work on Monday morning at 8:00 and to work until 5:00, um, we have not taken into consideration then that, that we actually don't get to then seeing into our families or go to hockey practice or go home and make dinner because we're doing all the same things, um, way into the evening. And then in an effort to regulate our systems, we feel like we've earned the right then to, like, watch Dateline for two hours before bed   Dawn TaylorAnd we're like socially acceptable thing these days. Dr. Jody CarringtonWhich I mean, again, makes complete sense to me if you understand the inundation of our system. So it's not the problem of, um, I think that sort of the development of technology, it really is what we do with it that becomes really critically important. When we have many exit ramps, we'll just take them. Dawn TaylorOh, we absolutely will. We sat down. About a year ago, we sat down and my husband and I both have very busy careers and we work a lot and there's an intensity to it. But he is so phenomenal at shutting off when he shuts off at the end of the day. Like his phone's done, his work is done, and he's good to go until the morning. And he hobbies like he's got hobbies, he's got his things. And we had a conversation. And one of the things he said to me, and this is something that I am constantly looking at within myself, is like, what are the expectations I've set for myself? Because those came from a standard that I set based on a situation. Right? And often he's like, I look at them and I'm like, okay, what are the expectations that I am putting on myself right now, or that I'm allowing society to put on me right now that no longer match my capacity? That no longer match where I am in life, right? And one of those was like, make a home cooked meal every day. Right like that was one of mine. But again, being raised by German farmers and my parents like that was what you did. It didn't matter. What was the expectation? Yeah. Pancakes. It didn't matter. You still made a home cooked meal every single day. Like we laugh about it as adults now, my siblings and I were like, there was always like a plate of cut up cucumbers and a plate of cut up tomatoes to make sure you had your veggies. And like, all of like the carb, the starch, the meat, right. Or the veggies. And we were laughing about it. And I sat down and I looked at him and I was like, I don't want to do that anymore. I don't have the capacity. And what it's doing is it's making me not enjoy it. And I'm not happy about cooking anymore. And I love cooking. But because it's like this rushed expectation, it's no longer enjoyable. And he's like, so don't cook. And now he laughs to me. And my inner circle knows, like I make one meal every Sunday and then I make another one on Friday to last for Friday, Saturday, Sunday. And then I make another one on Sunday. But I am now at a point where, like, I've done this for over a year now, I cook two times a week. And I'll eat that same meal for lunch and dinner and just add, like, a new hot sauce to it, or shift something about how I eat it. But it's this beautiful gift I've given myself to be off a little bit. And I think it's even just those simple things. So simple things, at the end of the day where, like one of my team members, she refuses to put emails on her phone. She refuses. She's like, nope, nobody can email my cell phone. I don't ever want to look at it. Yeah, she's like, so if I'm not at my computer, I cannot check an email.   Dr. Jody CarringtonYeah, brilliant. And it's really and it's like, it's so many of those things that we've never even thought about doing.Because like, oh my God, can we do that? Is that allowed? that allowed? That's awesome.   Dawn TaylorRight. And it's laying out those expectations, this thing with those expectations for ourselves, but also the people around us to be like, no, I'm not available at two in the morning. Dr. Jody CarringtonYes, yes, yes.   Dawn TaylorI'm not going to answer my phone call at 10:00 at night. I'm not going to respond to a text. Sometimes people laugh at me. They're like, is your ringtone ever on? I'm like, very seldom. If I'm like in a shopping mall, separated from people I'm with, and I know we're going to call when we're done. Yes, I'll turn it on. But other than that, it lives off all the time because otherwise it was that constant, just constant ding ding ding ding ding, right? Dr. Jody CarringtonYeah, 100%. And I think that like, I think I think so much of it is, you know, we can always sort of not, not make the excuse. But I think for many of us there is that real expectation that, you know, we do have to be available for our children or our aging parents or, you know, we're on call because of our job. And I think that, like, accessibility is also not always a bad thing. I think it's a little bit about, you know, do we have the counterbalance to be able to do that on purpose? Because I think if you shut off all of your things and you spend the vast majority of your time wondering, are you missing something? Um, it's also not a benefit. And so I think the idea is also with respect to whatever works for you, doing that on purpose, because I think, again, it's that that concept of, you know, even this week, charge your phone outside of your bed one night, one night outside of your bedroom, one night, if you know, if it's like, no, I'm on call for the volunteer fire department or, you know, I'm my kids got the car and I don't want to okay. Like if it's going to be more difficult to not do those things, then don’t.   Dawn Taylor100%.   Dr. Jody CarringtonRight. And I think that it's these easy little things that -  not easy. I shouldn't say - um, tiny little switches to our, you know, 30seconds of dropping your shoulders, breathing deep, letting your gut out, wiggling your toes, doing those things that sort of get our body back in alignment, you know, which is really, I think, where the self-care rhetoric came from, their very prescriptive way of, you know, move, um, you got to work out, you got to

Why you would want to listen to this episode…Jo Peters is a woman who wears many hats. She is a coach, speaker, author and TV show host. But most importantly, she is proudly a woman. In all her years of existence and with all the years of experience she's had, she knows that societal expectations are through the roof for her and her fellow women. The game may be rigged but Jo is here to prove that women can make their own rules and forge their path to success. In this episode of The Taylor Way Talks, Dawn discusses with Jo the freedom one can achieve with knowing when enough is enough. Who this forIn the hamster wheel of life that we're forced to run on endlessly, it can be hard to figure out when enough is enough, and in turn, when we've finally had enough. This could lead to burnout and affect our mental health, vigour and connections with people even without realizing it. Though this episode primarily focuses on the female perspective, people from all walks of life can learn something valuable from this episode. If you are someone who has always wanted to live life your way and free yourself from people's unrealistic expectations, then this episode is for you. About Dawn TaylorDawn Taylor is the professional ass-kicker, hope giver, life strategist, trauma specialist, and all-around badass. Dawn's journey into helping others heal began when she took her personal recovery from the trauma she experienced in her life into her own hands. While at times unconventional, Dawn’s strategic methods have helped hundreds heal from traumas such as issues related to infidelity,  overcoming addiction,  working through PTSD from sexual, emotional, and physical abuse, as well as helping cult survivors thrive. Dawn’s work has empowered entrepreneurs, stay-at-home moms, and CEOs alike to be superheroes in their own lives. Having completed thousands of hours of training from many professional programs, including the Robbins Madanes Training Institute, Dawn’s blunt honesty will challenge your thinking, broaden your awareness, and help you achieve the outstanding results you are worthy of.Connect with Dawn here at The Taylor Way: Consultation Call | Website | Facebook | Instagram | LinkedInGet to know Dawn on a deeper level through her book! Order HereP.S. I Made It, is a powerful story that grabs you through its lack of pretension and honesty. Every page reveals another layer of curious wonder at both Dawn’s life and the power of hope that moves within each of us. Dawn’s hope is that you use this book as a resource to deal with your struggles. Share it with someone who needs it. We all want to feel like someone understands what it’s like to suffer through something and – come out the other side. She describes her life as “horrifically beautiful and beautifully horrific. Guest BioJo is an experienced and passionate leader, speaker, coach, transformational trainer, mom, wife, and friend. Not to mention, a bestselling author of two books in seven countries. She enjoys helping women to discover how to have it all without doing it all, finding the best version of themselves and understanding that it’s never about the money, the food, the kids or the husband. Instead, it’s always about them and the inner work they need to do to be able to live the life of their dreams, the life they totally deserve to live. Jo has over 17 years of experience working with Fortune 100 companies like Goodyear & PepsiCo, and leading personal development companies like Mindvalley. She has coached and trained over 15,000 people on 4 continents and in more than 25 countries. Jo has spoken in multiple universities both in the US and internationally and is frequently a podcast guest where she shares her knowledge and experience in a broader way. She is also the host of a TV show, MOMFIT with Jo Peters, that reaches over 1 million views every week.Guest Social LinksWebsite - https://jounicorncoach.comFacebook - https://facebook.com/jounicorncoachInstagram - https://instagram.com/jounicorncoachThanks for listening!Thanks so much for listening to our podcast! If you enjoyed this episode and think that others could benefit from listening, please share it using the social media buttons on this page. Do you have some feedback or questions about this episode? Leave a comment in the section below!Follow the podcastIf you want to receive new podcast episodes automatically, you can follow us on Apple Podcasts or in your favourite podcast app.Please leave us an Apple Podcasts reviewRatings and reviews from our listeners are extremely valuable to us and greatly appreciated. They help our podcast rank higher on Apple Podcasts, which exposes our show to more awesome listeners like you. If you have a minute, please leave an honest review.Views Expressed, Legal and Medical DisclaimerThis podcast (including any/all site pages, blog posts, blog comments, forums, videos, audio recordings, etc.) is not intended to replace the services of a physician, nor does it constitute a doctor-patient relationship. Information is provided for informational purposes only and is not a substitute for professional medical advice. You should not use the information on this podcast for diagnosing or treating a medical or health condition. If you have or suspect you have an urgent medical problem, promptly contact your professional healthcare provider. Any application of the recommendations in this podcast/website is at the listener/reader's discretion. The views and opinions expressed are those of guests and do not necessarily reflect the opinion or policy of Dawn Taylor, The Taylor Way and or its Associates. The before mentioned are not liable for any direct or indirect claim or loss. TRANSCRIPTDawn TaylorHey, hey, hey, I'm your host, Dawn Taylor. Okay, one day, I'm just not even going to say that because. Hi. You know that obviously, if you're listening to my podcast. Anyways, today we are talking to Jo, the unicorn coach, and our topic is when is enough enough? And if that's right, we are probably potentially going to piss people off and we are okay with that because this is a topic that really needs to be discussed. Before we get started, let me tell you a little bit about this absolutely phenomenal human being. Jo is an experienced and passionate leader, speaker, coach, transformational trainer, mom, wife, friend, and probably way more. Not to mention, she's a best selling author of two books in seven countries. Guys, she's kind of a rock star. She's all about, like, inner work, figuring out what you need, following your dreams, helping people live and really figure out, like, that they deserve to live. She's over 17 years of experience working with fortune 100 companies like Goodyear, PepsiCo. So not just your everyday coach, not just your everyday person who hasn't lived the the life or walked the walk. She was also, she worked with a leading personal development company like called Mind Valley, which we've probably all heard of. She's coached and trained over 15,000 people, you guys, on four continents and in more than 25 countries. She's spoken in multiple universities, both in the US and internationally, and is frequently a podcast guest, where she gets to talk and hang out and share some of her knowledge. She also, because she's bored and has all the time on her hands, is the host of a TV show, Mom Fit with Jo Peters that reaches over a million views every single week. So, if you're not intimidated, I am. But this is who I managed to get as a guest on my show today. So here she goes. Welcome to the show, Jo.Jo Peters Thank you so much for having me. I am super excited to be here and talk about the things that nobody else talks about. And let's go to normalize that for ourselves and others. Dawn TaylorRight? So we had met, I mean, within the last week we talked. And for anyone listening, I interview everyone who goes on my podcast. We have like a 15 minute ahead of time to be like, what are we going to talk about? Is this the right fit? Is this a conversation that really needs to happen? And you and I both were like, oh my gosh, when is enough enough? As a society, but more importantly, from who we are as women. Right. Like, at what point is 0 do you not need the big huge job? At what point do you not need to have all these huge expectations? So let's dive into this. What is some of your background that got you to where you are and doing what you're doing?Jo Peters The background is that I was for a lot of time, almost a decade into that. I call it the hamster wheel, where I was all into hanging on into the society, keep asking for more, keep working more, keep reaching more and more, more, more is more. More is more. More is better. More is, um, what you want, and I start feeling that emptiness in my heart of, I had everything that society was telling me that I should have, like $4 million per year, uh, beautiful house, all that. And that was still pushing more and more and more. But I still was like, “Is this it? Like, is this really like what is going to happen in my life for the rest of my life?” And back then I was still working, um, for corporate America. And one of my mentors was at that moment, the president of Lilly in the United States asked me that question and said, “I want you to know, I want you to answer me this. And if you don't know, that's fine, but I want you to work on it. How much is enough?” He just talked about it in the financial part. But you were like, how much is enough money in your bank account for you to say, I'm good? And then I look at him and I smile and say, like, “Well, I don't know.” And he will, I will. That is the first answer that you need to ask, because if you ever wonder why me or Jeff Bezos or all these billionaire, multi-millionaires, you are like, why do they keep working? Why do they keep hustling? This is why. Because we never answered this question. And when you don't have clear what is enough and how much is enough, then it will you get in the hamster wheel of feeling that is never enough. You will always have another month. You will always have another year. And that is based on a society that is mainly designed from a patriarchal standpoint, from a male energy standpoint. I was today preparing for the show. I was listening to an audiobook. And they were saying how they are statistics on what males versus females do with power and well, and how males by their brain are designed to collect it, to accumulate it, to create generational wealth than for females is more about impact and creating community and supporting others and helping others. That is part of our DNA. And if we don't put that in the mix of really “What is enough for me?” Not in a silo, but as a whole human being as a whole female, as a whole multi passionate person that wants to be there for her kids and for her partner and for her friends and for her business or her company. Then that is when we as women, I think, get into the hamster wheel and go into burnout. And then I say, it's not possible having it all. I'm done. I'm quitting. I'm closing the company. I'm divorcing. Uh, whatever it is, that explosion of time that happened, when we get into the will of more and more and more, and we don't have that clarity of what I really want in life. And having that permission, you and me, we're talking about this to accept that it could be different than others, than what means enough for me is different than what means to you. And hey, we are going to support each other. We are going to love each other. We are going to cheer for each other. And the only thing that we're not going to do is just start comparing ourselves and doubting why what you want and what enough for you is different that what it is for me because we are freaking different people, right? Dawn TaylorSo, diving into this. So, Barbie movie just came out a little while ago and there is so much controversy around it. Right? And at the same time, it’s America Ferrera who did that talk about, like who we have to be as women and what has to happen. And I was talking to a friend about it and I said, you know what? Say what you will about the movie, but that is how the majority of women think, and that is really the pressure that we have put on ourselves. Let's be perfectly honest here, and I don't care if anyone is upset about that. I believe we have put that on ourselves. We have 100% put that on ourselves, right? The majority of men are not expecting those things of us. Right. And I remember the day that my husband looked to me and I was all stressed out because I was overwhelmed. And, you know, he was finally home every night for dinner. So I had to make dinner every night. And I was like, working full time. And I'm trying to take care of the house. I'm trying to take care of everything. And we had been in a situation for years where he worked out of town, so he wasn't home every night. So, I deal with the car and I deal with the oil changes, and I deal with the garbage, and I deal with the laundry, and I deal with paying the bills, and I deal with everything because he's not home a lot. And all of a sudden that shifted. And now he's home every night for dinner. And I got really angry. And I walked upstairs one day and I looked at him and I was like, “Oh, what? Now you're going to ask what's for dinner?” And he was like, “No, no, I'm actually not.” And I was like, “You know, this isn't fair. I feel like this just isn't right. And I'm working more than you are. And now I have to make dinner every night.” And he's like, “Whoever said that that was an expectation of you.” I remember looking at him and being like you. And he went, no. He's like, you can actually never cook me a meal again for the rest of your life, and it wouldn't change my love for you. He's like, you have an expectation on yourself of what dinnertime needs to look like. You have an expectation on yourself about the fact you have to make a brand new, fresh meal every day. He's like, stop. He said. Because you're torturing yourself and then getting mad at me for it. And it was such an aha moment for me of like, oh, the stuff that I talk to clients about every day, right? You and I both do. But we do have these insane expectations. And am I saying that men don't ever put these on us? No, because they do. Right. But how many of them are actually just from us? But then tying that also into like, this hustle culture that we're in. Right. We're both in this coaching industry. And I was literally just at a networking event and they were talking about like seven steps to a seven figure business. And I looked at the guy next to me that has a product, product based business with multiple locations. And I looked at him and I said, what are the chances a single person in this room ever hit seven figures? And he started laughing and he goes. “Probably pretty low.”Jo Peters2% for females. For women in the United States, only 2% of business owners that are female reached seven figures. Dawn TaylorRight? And he started laughing. And he goes, what are you thinking? And I said, well, is it? It's interesting that it's like, oh, here's your seven steps and all the things you need to do to get there. And I said, but when I look around this room, I see moms, I see caregivers of elderly parents. I see single dads. I said, when do we give ourselves permission as a society to know that we don't actually have to hit seven figures to be considered a success? That we don't have to push, push, push, push, push that we can lower our goals. We can actually lower our goals to the point where we're sitting at a really stable, healthy level and just kind of go and we don't have to consistently be in this hustle and this drive. All the time. And he looked at me and he's like, hmm. He's like, “I'd love to see you get up and ask this room that.” And we just laughed about it, right? And the day continued and the speakers kept talking and I was thinking about it in regards to our talk today. Right. And this podcast episode. Because when is enough enough? Jo PetersAnd I think that I think that goes into what I'm seeing and what I believe goes in two main reasonings. The first one is, um, absolutely is imposed by us. And I think that goes into what I call hashtag the good girl syndrome. And that good girl syndrome is that brainwash that we had in watching when we were two years old where our toys were kitchens and what we saw with our mothers and our grandmothers. So that good girl, just complying, of being people pleasers, of believing that our worth is attached to our performance, to what we do. And then when we take that, that culturally for generations is being how women are created, and we mix it with the huge screw up that we have right now in the business world, in the leadership world, where all that system and structure that the world run right now on was designed two, three, 400 years ago by literally white males for white males, because 400 years ago there were not business owners like you and me, see, and I think that part of that is that we are still trying to play and win that game. That is a game that never was designed for us, that never was created for us. That doesn't take into consideration all the other variables that we as females had. So, I really think that we are set for failures in the beginning, because when is enough enough? We don't even start thinking about that in a holistic perspective of what my life as a woman is. My life as a woman is not just my career. It's not just my business. I remember, uh, a conversation that I had with a client that came in a coaching session, very dysregulated. And she was like, because we were talking about five-year, ten-year vision into planning. And she was like, well, I don't have five years. And then I was listening to this, uh, coach,  very famous person saying that you should have a ten-year and make it happen in six months.  And I'm like, okay. Dawn TaylorOh, I heard the speaker talk about that today. Jo PetersAnd I would be like, mhm okay. Who else do you hear saying that? I want to ask you the same. And then she named like two more people or two more people and they were all males. And I say okay do you ever hear a woman, a woman and especially uh, maternal woman either taking care of their elderly parents or taking care of children, saying the same? And then she talked for like ten minutes and say no. So, like, do you know why? And then you're like, no. And I said, like, because those males that are saying that in stages and in courses and in groups, 99.9% of them had a wife or a mom or a maternal person that take care of everything else so they can get one focus. Just go and make it happen. 99.9% of us females don't have that privilege because we have homes, because we have parents, because we have children. So I think that is matter of us to start dropping that good girl syndrome and expectation and say, okay, first, it's going to be very clear how I want to live and why in the three main areas of my life, how I want my health and my wellness to be, how I want my relationships with my children, with my partner, with my in-laws, with my family be and then what is the level of finances that I want to have? The lifestyle that I want? For some of us, could be “I just want to be in the middle of the field raising chickens and goats. And that will make me the best, happiest person in the world.” For somebody else to be going and traveling for three months. We need to have clarity into who we are first and what makes us happy as a whole. And then from there, I start making those conceptions of “This is what enough is, this is what enough is, this is what enough is.” in those areas of our life. And then from there, I start working as an engineer backwards, re-engineer backwards from what I want backwards into. Okay, so now what I have to do, do I really need to work 100 hours if this is what I want? Uh, probably not. So we don't need to get to that point of burnout where we just as women try to send everything to hell and burn the village with us. Dawn TaylorI was going to say, when women burn out, we're like, I'm going down in a flame of glory, and I'm going to burn everything in my path with me. Jo PetersSomeone like that, like The Hunger Games, like if I, I if I burn, you burn with us. Dawn TaylorOh, 100% like you're taking down the village. Yeah, totally. I love how you worded that right. I always called it like a build back schedule. So like I had a new I have a new client starting actually tomorrow. And her and I were talking about it and I said, “So what do you want to make in your business?” And she said, “What do you mean?” And I was like, “What's your number?” “Well, no, it's about helping people.” I'm like, “No. What's your number?” She was like, “What?” I was like, “You wouldn't be doing a business or running a company if you didn't want to actually make some cash. So maybe that's not your focus and that's not why you're doing what you're doing,” I said. “But you need something tangible and measurable to know that you're hitting your goals and you're actually succeeding at it.” And she said her number. And I said, “Okay, what are your rates?” And she told me and I was like, “Cool, you're never going to hit it.” I can tell you that right now. She was like. “What?” And this is just in our consultation. And I said, “You physically can't.” Like, do the math. One plus one has to equal two. Like, you can't. You won't hit it unless you're willing to work 18 hours a day, seven days a week, because the math doesn't work. So, what are your priorities? And one of the metaphors I have to use is like - so you have like an egg carton and you have enough spots for 12 eggs. Okay. What are your priorities? What is taking up? What amount of space? Is it travel? Is it time with friends and family? Is it working out two hours a day? Is it money? What is it? You have to figure that out. Right before you set your goals, before you do any of that stuff. And I know for me that was a big one, is my goals in 2024 are way less than they were in 2023. And when I told someone that they were like, what? That doesn't even make sense. Like, why would you want to decrease your income for the next year? And I said, “No, no, no, it's not about decreasing it. I figured out my level, my numbers off where I'm comfortable with, where I'm happy with, where I can live the lifestyle I want, where I can have the retirement I want. And I can still have time for my health and still have balance and still travel and still do all of these things.” So, why am I pushing so hard for more? Because I don't actually need it. Right. Jo PetersI think that is about what we were saying. And you know that because you know the number, because you are clear going back into you need to go into that feature and say, “okay, got to be clear into what enough is in my health, what enough is in my relationship, what enough is in my finances.” Because from there you come back and say, okay, so how much? What I need to do, what I need to adjust. The problem is society brainwash is giving us into that hamster wheel of oh, having more is going, is almost like I will be happy when I have money I will be happy when I be. This is the perfect sample. I will be happy when I'm a millionaire. Yeah, you can be a millionaire with $1 million or with $999 million. You are still a millionaire. So, when you're going to stop, are you going to stop at 1 million or you are going to go until 900? So, it's about that clarity. And I think that is also very important to know us and in our personalities. One of the things that I work a lot with is with archetypes and, and is so important that we honor that because the reality is depending on who we are, is going to work differently for all of us. One of my clients is super funny because she is an alchemist onto, like flow, and she was very frustrated last year with how that she was living on. Now, everybody else that was coaching her was like, well, fine. Uh, another house and get a commitment. And for a year, like the regular thing. And then she started working with me. And I was like, “What do you want?” And then she was like, “I would love to just jump from place to place.” She's been for the last seven months and had houses for the next eight months ahead, to where she's completely living in the house that she wants. And the model that is working for her is she's housesitting for these amazing houses so she doesn't pay rent. She lived there for free. She lives in beautiful houses that are hers for month to month. Will that work for me? Will not work for me. Do that work for her and make her feel completely happy. Yes. So why? She will need to jump into the wheel and say no until it's not my house. And I put a down payment and I get a mortgage for 30 years, then it's not going to be really successful. Bullshit. Dawn TaylorThank you. My husband and I had this conversation the other day and due to a bunch of circumstances, right, we're renting right now and we're not owning a house. And we were talking about it because we're like in about two years, like we've been talking about, like building a house and having an acreage. I'm having a property and all these things. We're planning this out now and we're dreaming about it. And I looked at him the other day and I was like, do we want that? And he started laughing and he's like, I don't even know if I do. Like he's like, so much of me desires that. And I want the privacy and I want this like I want all the things he's like, but I love the freedom that we could give 30 days notice tomorrow and move. Like, we could pack up our entire lives and leave, and he's like, we're not going to. We both have very solid careers here. We both love what we're doing. Like we have people, our life is here. He's like, but man, that freedom. He's like, I freaking love knowing we have it. And the amount of people that have judged us for not owning a house and made really snide remarks about it. And I'm like, but that's not my measure of success, is owning a house. And then when I tell people I'm like, actually, I've owned four properties, I've actually owned four. So I can already check that box. I've owned condos, houses, duplexes. Like I can check that box perfectly fine. And now I'm renting again. You know, I had a mentor years ago. I wasn't the right fit. He wasn't the right fit. I wasn't the right spot on my business, to be perfectly frank. Now, I could take the whole I would totally love to be his mentee, but he wasn't the right fit at the time. But one of the things that he said to me one day, because he was the guy, he was the guy with like multiple multi, multimillion million dollar companies flying in his private jet to his different plants and his different corporate headquarters all over the world. Like he was this crazy, amazing man. And I asked him I was like, “So when do you know you've made it?” And he said, “Let me give you the best advice I ever got.” And I said, “What's that?” And he goes, “Seven things. Find seven measures of success.” And he said, “And it doesn't matter what they are.” He's like, “One of my measures of success was the day that I could go home and have lunch with my wife if I felt like it. And I had that freedom. One of my measures of success was when I had the cash in my bank account to buy, like a Toyota Corolla car. Cash. He's like, not even a fancy one. Like I didn't want, like, a Lamborghini or a Ferrari like. But I could walk into a dealership. With cash and buy a car. One of them is when I could go to every single sporting event for my son. In a single month, and I wouldn't miss one of them if I chose to.” And he's like, “I'm not telling you the rest because some of them are very private.” he said. “But come up with your seven things. Your seven things that you've made it.” And you know what one of mine is? When I can turn off my alarm clock and sleep in if I want to. Right. Jo PetersWhen I go to, well, you were saying with your husband. And then, him, I will pay you $1,000 right now that if you reach out back to him. And that is probably one of the main differences between why so burning out for us females versus males? Because they have all those measures of success.  And my dear sister, the last thing that they are thinking is how they can do all of that by themselves. Oh, they are always thinking. These are the measure of success. This is what is going to be here, okay. Who can help me with this and this and that? So, their brain works like that? Ours. Not so. We are like, these are all my measures of success and I'm going to do it all. So I'm going to still work full time in my business and then um, go to the do the game with my kid and then stay until midnight to catch up and then and then and then and then. And that is part of of that. Don't drop the ball. Dawn TaylorMen don't think that way. They're so quick to hire a staff. They're so quick to delegate something there, so quick to walk away. My male clients are the ones that are like, no, it's fine at 90% if someone else is doing it, because I don't feel like putting in the extra ten and figuring it out myself. They are so quick to do that and women are like, no, I can do it. I just have to add more hours. I just have to get up earlier. I have to stay up later. I have to just find the time. I remember the first time I hired a house cleaner. My husband and I were having this argument. So we've been together 28 years. And we were probably, oh gosh, probably about five years into marriage. And so I've been about eight, nine years into our relationship. And we both worked full time. We both had crazy hours. We had so much going on. And he looked at me and he goes, “Dawn, take care of the house. I need the house to be cleaner. I can't handle the chaos and the dirt in here, and I can handle doing it on my day off like I've one day off a week. I'm not cleaning. Figure it out. I need you to take this on.” And I was like, “Yeah, cool.” I hired a cleaner that day. He didn't know. He did not know. I hired a cleaner for almost 18 months because she came when he was at work. I've said nothing. You just went into the budget. We dealt with it. He was so happy. Our house was so clean. But then I was like, “No, you didn't say I had to deal with it. You said I had to take care of it.” And maybe that's like the post aneurysm masculine side of my brain that I love so much. I was like, “No, no, no, I'm not adding one more thing to my plate. But I sure as hell will hire someone else to do it.” Right. And all of a sudden I was away on a business trip and he ended up off for a rainy day. He didn't work that day. And he's wandering around the kitchen and the door opens and the cleaner arrives and he was like, “Um, hi, lady. Who are you?” She's this woman, like in her 50s, and she's like, “I'm your house cleaner.” And he was like, “Sorry. What?” She's like, “I've been cleaning your house every Monday or every Tuesday or whatever it was for like a year and a half. Like, I have a house key.” And it was like. Okay. And I'll never forget that phone call I got right. And he was so shook but laughing so hard. And he's like, “I love that you just didn't accept it and take that. Right. And I think we need more of that. We need more of that where it's like, wait a sec, I can't do everything. Maybe I need to hire a VA to help with something. Maybe I need to hire a cleaner. Maybe I need to hire an assistant. Maybe I need to look down, look at my expectations that I have of myself. I figure out, are they mine? Are they somebody else's? Are they a coach that I've hired? Are they a parent or are they like, whose are they, and am I okay with them? Jo PetersLike. I love that you put that example because I tell my my clients and my friends that like, I was talking with somebody in Puerto Rico in January and she was thinking about, again, very successful, her and her husband, working kids. And as we are being talking to the default everything. And she was talking about a housekeeper and I said like, “Hey, that is going to be the best decision of this year for you. And let me tell you something else. It's not going to only make the house better, it's going to literally improve your relationship with your husband. It's really going to improve your sexual life because it's one less stress for both of you. One last thing for you guys to argue, to fight, to discuss.” So, the best investment ever is that and I one of the things that that always because I'm up here perfectionism recovery that I see in a lot of women, including me, is part of that fear of dropping the ball, of delegating is “They are not going to do it as good as I do it.” So, then I have to do it all. And for the female audience that are here, if you want to hear something, that you may be pissed, but it's okay. Like I like to hear, that is what we're doing here. A lot of people complain about not having health at home, with their partners, with their kids, because yeah, we can hire and there are people that are saying, I'm just starting my business. I cannot hire yet you still have people in your house that can help you. One of the reasons why they don't help is because. Whenever you ask somebody to do something for you, and after they do it, you go back and do it again. Or told them that was not the way, this is the way. That is when you are screwing things. My standard is 100%. What will be good enough? Thinking about grades. The best grades? Hundred percent with what grade I pass the course? Do I have 50, 70, 80? And then? Can I be okay with that? Can I be okay with that? Can I ask my husband, take care of the laundry? And even if he doesn't fold the sheets and the towels like I do. What is the end goal? Is the laundry clean? Okay, let it go. Like Frozen said, “Let it go.” So then you can take care of the things that really, like you were saying, are your priorities, your freedom, the things that make you fun, because we only have 24 hours a day, I truly believe we can have it all. What we need to stop thinking that we can do is we need to stop thinking that we can do it all. We cannot do it all. That is a recipe for burnout. That is the recipe for breaking marriages. That is the recipe for creation, for depression, for meltdowns. You cannot do it all. You are not supposed to do it at all. You were supposed to live in a community that help you. Let people help you. Dawn TaylorWell. And for the generations where like, we literally had a family cookbook growing up, you know, when they said, I don't know if they did this in Puerto Rico, but these who do these like fundraisers or things where it'd be like the family cookbook and everyone would pitch in their five favorite recipes and they'd make these cookbooks and sell them. It was like a thing in the 80s and 90s. So every church group had one, every sports team had one, every family had one. Like, I swear, when my mom passed away, we got rid of like 20 of them because we're like, we don't know these people, we never use these, right? But the one that was for my family literally said in it, your actions equal your worth. And we were raised, right, especially babies of the 80s and 90s, 70s. Whatever. We were raised with transactional love, where it was like, “I will love you if you perform.” That is when you'll get attention. That is when you'll get love. That is how this works. Here's the thing that is not how love works. So if that is a struggle that people have, that is something they need to heal. That is something that people need to heal desperately. And I was like, go to the show notes. You have both of our contact information. Pick one of us and heal that, right. Or find someone else. But I think that that's such a big piece of it. Is. But, if I can't do it all, then I'm not enough. Then I'm not accepted. Then I'm not loved. Then I'm a failure. Right, then I'm all of those things. And I was talking to a client this morning and she's like, she's a big challenge coming up for herself this fall. And she's like, “I'm just so terrified of failing.” And I said, “Okay, define failing.” She said, “What do you mean?” I was like, “What has to happen for you to fail?” She's like, “I don't even know.” And I said, okay, “So you do know that that is the same as me being angry every morning and being terrified or being angry every day because I didn't turn into a unicorn in my sleep.” Like I'm just so mad. Like it's that logical. I was like, you're terrified of something you don't even have a definition on that isn't even real. And she started to laugh about it. And we were having this conversation about it and I said, you know, I said, how many times in life do we not do something because we're scared to fail and we don't even know what it would mean to fail. Right. And so when we have like this transactional love that we were raised with. So now we have to provide we have to show up, we have to do all these things. I was at a the networking event I was at at lunch today. And this woman beside me, she's like, I'm so stressed out. When I asked how she was doing, she's like, I'll be honest, I'm totally stressing out today. And I was like, okay, what do you need to take off your list? Different. What do you mean? And I was like, well, stressed is just overwhelmed. So what is it you're overwhelmed with? Because overall means that we put too many things on our list, or we've allowed other people to put too many things in our list because we have unhealthy boundaries. So what are you taking off? Actually, she kind of looked at me and she was like, “Oh.” Now I was like, “So what specifically is making you feel stressed?” And she's like, “I don't even know what to make for dinner tonight.” She's like, “Dawn, it's 3:00 and I don't know what to make for dinner tonight.” And I said, “Is there a grocery store between here and home?” And she went, “Well, yeah.”  And I was like, nobody ever died from having cereal for dinner. “Buy a jug of milk and a box of cereal, slap it on the table and say, enjoy dinner.” And she started laughing and she was like, “But I can't.” I was like, “Oh, you grew up in the 80s, you know that? We ate pancakes way too many times and macaroni and cheese way too many times, a pizza pop too many times. And I said, guess what? We all survived and we're all here.” I said, maybe you need to look at your expectation that you have on yourself the standard you've set for yourself when it comes to meals, and re-evaluate if that standard still lines up with the position you're at in your life. Jo

Why you would want to listen to this episode…Dawn Taylor has kicked all sorts of ass in her lifetime. She’s beaten death, and helped clients all over the world make improvements in their lives in different, meaningful ways. However, this doesn’t mean she’s invincible. She still very much has her own fears, ones that she’s struggled with almost daily. On today’s episode, we are joined by Dawn’s right-hand woman, Jenny Ryce, as the two reminisce about their amazing vacation together. More than just a vacation though for this was where Dawn learned to face her fears and conquer them. Who is this for…Fear is a very human emotion. It can sometimes be there to protect us from harm. However, when left unchecked, fear can end up crippling us and keeping us away from things. With that in mind, this episode is for those who are looking for a nudge in the right direction when it comes to conquering their fears. It’s never too late to stand up to your fear and it’s never too early to take action so you can live the life you want.About Dawn TaylorDawn Taylor is the professional ass-kicker, hope giver, life strategist, trauma specialist, and all-around badass. Dawn's journey into helping others heal began when she took her personal recovery from the trauma she experienced in her life into her own hands. While at times unconventional, Dawn’s strategic methods have helped hundreds heal from traumas such as issues related to infidelity,  overcoming addiction,  working through PTSD from sexual, emotional, and physical abuse, as well as helping cult survivors thrive. Dawn’s work has empowered entrepreneurs, stay-at-home moms, and CEOs alike to be superheroes in their own lives. Having completed thousands of hours of training from many professional programs, including the Robbins Madanes Training Institute, Dawn’s blunt honesty will challenge your thinking, broaden your awareness, and help you achieve the outstanding results you are worthy of.Connect with Dawn here at The Taylor Way: Consultation Call | Website | Facebook | Instagram | LinkedInGet to know Dawn on a deeper level through her book! Order HereP.S. I Made It, is a powerful story that grabs you through its lack of pretension and honesty. Every page reveals another layer of curious wonder at both Dawn’s life and the power of hope that moves within each of us. Dawn’s hope is that you use this book as a resource to deal with your struggles. Share it with someone who needs it. We all want to feel like someone understands what it’s like to suffer through something and – come out the other side. She describes her life as “horrifically beautiful and beautifully horrific. Thanks for listening!Thanks so much for listening to our podcast! If you enjoyed this episode and think that others could benefit from listening, please share it using the social media buttons on this page. Do you have some feedback or questions about this episode? Leave a comment in the section below!Follow the podcastIf you want to receive new podcast episodes automatically, you can follow us on Apple Podcasts or in your favourite podcast app.Please leave us an Apple Podcasts reviewRatings and reviews from our listeners are extremely valuable to us and greatly appreciated. They help our podcast rank higher on Apple Podcasts, which exposes our show to more awesome listeners like you. If you have a minute, please leave an honest review.Views Expressed, Legal and Medical DisclaimerThis podcast (including any/all site pages, blog posts, blog comments, forums, videos, audio recordings, etc.) is not intended to replace the services of a physician, nor does it constitute a doctor-patient relationship. Information is provided for informational purposes only and is not a substitute for professional medical advice. You should not use the information on this podcast for diagnosing or treating a medical or health condition. If you have or suspect you have an urgent medical problem, promptly contact your professional healthcare provider. Any application of the recommendations in this podcast/website is at the listener/reader's discretion. The views and opinions expressed are those of guests and do not necessarily reflect the opinion or policy of Dawn Taylor, The Taylor Way and or its Associates. The before mentioned are not liable for any direct or indirect claim or loss. TranscriptDawn TaylorI'm your host, Dawn Taylor. And today we are talking to the amazing, fabulous, wonderful me. No, seriously though, we are talking to me today. Jenny is going to be taking over and putting me in the hot seat because something really, really massive has gone down in my personal world over the last few months that I have overcome. And if you've read my book, you may have read a line that said, "P.S. you might want to talk to a therapist about this." And yeah, some big things have gone down. And when Jenny and I were in a meeting one day, she's like, "You know what? We really need to share this with your podcast world." So, I hope you love this episode. I hope that you feel a little bit inspired from it. And yeah, we're going to let Jenny take over. For those of you who don't know, she is the CEO of the Taylor Way and more importantly, she's one of my really good friends. So take it away, Jenny. Jenny RyceHey everybody. Thanks for showing up. And Dawn, as always, for letting me steal your seat in the Taylor Way Talks podcast world. Dawn TaylorOh. You're welcome. Maybe? Jenny RyceI know you might regret it.Dawn Taylor I was like, Will I regret this decision? You just don't know. Jenny RyceYou just don't know where we might go down the rabbit hole. Dawn TaylorPretty much. Jenny RyceThank you guys, everyone, for showing up and and taking the time to listen to us today. Dawn and I were talking about something that was really, um. really fascinating. We were digging into the topic of fears. Right? And how do we face our fears? Because regardless if they seem rational or not to other people, when when we are anchored in our own fears, there's no talking through it. There's no, you know, zero logic. And, uh, Dawn and I were blessed. She took me on a really fun, uh, retreat getaway for for, I think, what were we on 10 or 12 days or something? Dawn TaylorOh, yeah. It was a full 12 days. Jenny RyceYeah. Fun. So we road tripped in Texas, and then we were really blessed to get on a cruise and go to some really beautiful places with palm trees and and ocean, right. When you're on a cruise ship, you're on the ocean. And we're going to dig into why that's important in a minute. But one thing I wanted to ask you, Dawn, before we got into it, I want to talk about fear itself, just so that the listeners and people that might be sharing this, this conversation with other people. I want to get clear on the definition of how you see fear, so that everybody's going to see it differently and understand it. So when we talk about facing fears, what does facing your fears mean to you? Dawn TaylorSo, our bodies are wired for protection, right? So they will not let us totally feel unsafe. And I say this often in talks is like there's a reason why we can't hold our breath to die. It's because your body will do anything to protect you and protection mechanisms. So, typically fears show up when something happens, right. So, for this conversation, when I was playing in the creek, in this creek and going over these waterfalls and a half empty air mattress when I was 12 and smashed my head at the bottom on the rock and went under and wasn't coming back out, and someone had to jump in and rescue me, right? Brought on this massive fear of water and having my face under the water. My husband playing a practical joke on me. We were dating in high school by filling the bottom of a backpack with snakes and asking me to grab a pen created this massive mess. That one's a big one. I'm still working on that one, but a massive fear of snakes for me. Right? Having a dog chase you or whatever. Right? Like fears come from a time in our life where something in us was really, really jarred. And then we attach a story of everything that will happen after it. Right? So it's like every time I go into the water, I'm going to feel like I'm drowning. This is now the new belief. This is the fear and the acronym "Future Events Appearing Real." Right, where it's like this is a fear of what could potentially happen. But my brain is convinced because it appears that it's actually real. Jenny RyceCan you do that acronym again in case people didn't actually catch that? Can you just, like, I want that to be hammered in like hard.Dawn TaylorFuture Events Appearing Real. So, not just like an idea that it might be real, like it's actually appearing, that it's real. You are fully believing that it's going to be real, even though it's a future event that hasn't even happened yet. Jenny RyceRight, so future event we're in the we we you know we're going to dig in the past today because we're not doing it as we speak. But before we were going on this trip, you had expressed especially this fear around water. I mean, you tackled a bunch of fears. Let's be honest, on this trip that we were together. Dawn TaylorOh, I totally did. Jenny RyceI, you know, I mean, I would love to think it was all me and hanging out with me, but let's be real. That's not the truth. I might have been a really good wingman for this, but the bottom line is when you're tackling fears, a lot of it comes from your own internal strength and resilience. So when we were talking about going on this trip, I'd love for you to share. And if only share what you're comfortable with, some of the reservations you are having about maybe some of the the excursions that I was curious and excited to to try. And it opened up this dialogue. Would you mind sharing with our listeners what that was? Dawn TaylorOh for sure. And, you know, I'll say anything. So, backtrack a little bit. The drowning thing when I was 12. So, I fully went in, I fully went under. And one of the hardest parts to admit about it was that I remember very distinctly not wanting to fight for myself. So, if you know anything about my past or if you've read my book, "P.S. I Made It." There is a chapter. There's fun. I mean, if you've read it, you understand that I had a really insane life, but I remember not wanting to fight for myself and thinking, this is my out. Like it's time I get to go now. And so that in and of itself was really, really hard. But it also attached that meaning to now, water, ever. And so from then on, I didn't plan leaks in the same way. I didn't plan rivers in the same way. I refused to go in the ocean. If I did go in the ocean, it was very, very shallow. I was not getting my face wet. I might be the only person I know that's done. Things like gone to Laguna Beach and never stepped foot in the water in two weeks, right? Just wouldn't do it. Put me in a pool, I'm fine. But even then I did like, lane swim with a paddle board so that I wouldn't have to put my face in the water. I've even gone as far as to like. I struggle in the shower, getting my face wet. And it makes me feel panicky immediately. So a couple years ago, and in order to see these, you're going to have to ask for them. But we will put some in the show notes on my website, TheTaylorWay.ca - few years ago, I did a photo shoot while trying to overcome my fear of water and forcing myself to sit in the fear of it. And Jenny, you've seen them there. They are jarring. They are jarring photos. So that's the one warning, if you go look at them. But.  I wanted to see what that looked like for myself, and to also have them to share with someone else if they ever needed to see them. So I put myself in a bathtub and forced myself to go under the water and hold it past the point of comfort and allow myself to face that in and the biggest thing was allow myself to face it and acknowledge if that feeling of not wanting to come back up showed up. Right? Because I think that, no, it's not even a nice thing. I know that behind the scenes, that was the big piece of it was, would I still have that feel? Would I still, at this point in my life, having healed so much and gotten where I am and build who I am, would I still have that moment of my head under the water thinking I could just not come back up? And how would I deal with that? And it's no different. I've talked before my social media on here and stuff about how, you know, if I get really, really, really sick and all of a sudden I can't eat for a long time, this little like wiggle in the back of my brain is like, "but you could just stop eating?" Right. And I always tell clients it's like, it's not about if that voice is going to come up or not. That's not even part of being healed. It's what you do with it that matters. So I had done this and faced this so that I could now put my head underwater. I could actually do that. And in January, I went on a trip with my husband and my nephew, and I actually swam in the ocean for the very first time in my life, fully swam, put my head under the water, got smashed by waves, everything else. But, there were still more fears around it. So when you and I started talking about this trip, all of a sudden it's like, let's go on a tandem bike ride through the jungle, let's go snorkeling. Let's go hold sloths and animals. You were asking me to do all these crazy things, paddleboarding, right? All of these crazy things, and I panicked. I really, genuinely panicked, right? It was like, I can't do those things, right. It's so many biases, so many biases that I even had on myself. If, like, I can't ride a bike through the jungle because there's no way I could do that and that that wouldn't even be a thing. And I'm too fat and I have bad knees and I, like, right to the same with paddle boarding. But I mean, that had its own like attachment to the ocean, peace in the water and everything else to snorkeling, because that's literally like face under the water for a really long, extended period of time. And when you and I first started talking about it, I know I explained some of this to you and like my fears, but I'm also a big believer that your fear is a fear because you're refusing to face it. And as long as I don't face them, it gives them power. 1s And I don't want anybody or anything to have power over me. Right? So part of my working on my snake fear, I used to not even be able to see a photo of a snake at all and where I'd panic. And I've actually been watching Survivor because there's snakes shown slithering like nonstop through the entire episode, and I'm forcing myself to watch it and pause it and look at them and be okay with that and feel through those feelings in my body. But I also did things like went to Utah and hiked a trail that is known to have rattlesnakes, and they give you a big talk before you walk it for safety. And I not only walked it, but I did it twice. To face that fear, right? Was it easy? No. Was I like, the entire time? Yes, but. But it was still facing it. And I think that's why I said yes to all of the random things that you wanted to do on this trip that terrified me. Because the more of my fears that I face. The less external things have power over me and control over me.Jenny RyceI love that because it's true? Right. It's hard work, but it's true. So you mentioned a few events that occurred on our vacation. So we want to bring some humor into this as well. So I think. I think we're going to go in chronological order, if that's okay with you. Dawn TaylorThat's good. Jenny RyceUm, and you brought up some really valid points, is so we're we we've booked this excursion and we booked it. So like, many entrepreneurs were super busy. We're multitasking, you know, we're doing the things we're trying to get ready. And we booked this one excursion. Dawn TaylorOkay, so for two non-drinkers, we joked our entire trip that we drunk booked our excursions. Okay. Like the things we booked that we never would have had we been thinking more clearly. Jenny Ryce Well, I'd say we wouldn't necessarily have booked them, but we may have put different ones or may, like - so this is the funny part you guys. We're, we're sitting down in bed, we're getting ready for excursion number one. It's like you know, we're going to wake up in the morning and we're heading out at like eight in the morning. When we get into dock, we're unloading and we're hitting the bus and we're doing the things. So I say to Dawn, can you read and tell us if is there anything we need to pack? Is there anything, is there change rooms because we're going to go. We're going on a trek through the jungle. And that was it. For those of you that don't know what that is, it's basically a natural hole in the ground where water comes in. And these are these beautiful oasis, the natural pool, basically surrounded by beautiful scenery, etc., etc. we're like sold. Didn't even read it. Just book it. Let's go. So, Dawn's reading out loud to me. 1s That she's like, um, we're going on a tandem bike through the jungle, Dawn TaylorSo we have to ride. There's no bus. Jenny RyceOkay, so for those of you, Dawn, you express this, which I, I really valued. What was your initial, I want you just to reiterate that your initial, because this wasn't we didn't decide determine this three weeks ago that we were going to ride this tandem bike. Dawn TaylorThere is not a chance in hell that my fat ass, lumpy body is going to get on a tandem bike and be able to ride through the jungle with my bad knees. That was my very initial reaction, and I was like, you're going in the front because I'm going to be in the back of my feet sticking out, and I'm not even going to pedal, and I'm going to die of heat exhaustion in some damn jungle, bike seat up my ass. That was my initial reaction. Jenny RyceBut what I loved is when I said to you, so this is when, you know, we do some of that self-loathing, right? It's like, I'm not capable. I'm physically a certain way. I'm, you know, the all the things I'm like, do you feel strongly enough that we should change this? And you know what I loved? You're like, no. And I said, awesome. Because honestly, if we can bike there, we can walk there. Worst-case scenario is we will get off our damn bike and we will walk it into this location that we're going right. And I had my own fears creeping in. I was like, oh my gosh, when was the last time - I've never been on a tandem bike. I felt this kind of responsibility to make sure we got to a location and, you know, like, am I going to have the balance? I'm 53 years old. I want to do this, but random, you know, I knew I had the physicality to do it, but I was like, oh my gosh, am I going to get Dawn there? I took on this mantle. That was my job. to get you, like I got very dramatic. My crazy helmet on and so we roll up, you guys to this amazingly random location.Dawn TaylorVery authentically, stereotypically poor Mexico. We're going to just put it that way Jenny RyceTo the point where I said to the gentleman, is there a washroom I can use at there where we get our bikes and our helmets? He's like, actually, ma'am, I would wait until we get to the cenote. There's nicer outhouses there for you. I wouldn't use the one here. And I was like, okay, like I'm going to hold it.Dawn TaylorBut oh my gosh, you guys just have this mental image. Okay. There's what, 16 of us? And in this little tour. We've ridden the bus forever to get out to this area. We're on this property. Beautiful flowers, altars, things, everywhere. It was stunning. And they give us our bikes and our bike helmets. Do we have bike helmets?Jenny RyceWe got helmets. Till on the ride home you didn't have yours on. Dawn TaylorYeah, mine was not on. Right? I look like an absolute doofus. And it wasn't really on my head. Like, had we fallen, I would have actually just died. Um, because I haven't ridden a bike since I was 12, and I'm now almost 44 and we get on our tenant bike and we're like, just going to ride around a little like parking lot area. And it is like the most potholey parking lot you've ever seen in your entire life. Like it is worse than anything. Like that's probably like the worst ride of the entire thing was the parking lot of the road leading up  to the jungle piece. And we get on this tandem bike, not realizing my handlebars. So I'm in the back, my handlebars are broken, and they're attached directly to Jenny's seat. So every time I move my handlebars, her entire seat turns with it. And it's natural that when you want to turn, you're trying to turn your handlebars. And we're on this tandem bike. We were laughing so freaking hard. Other people could hardly ride their bikes because they were laughing at our laughing at ourselves. So, we finally like trade in our bike, get a better one that's not broken, and then we start this ride. And if we didn't die laughing the entire time, it was the - Jenny RyceI mean, I'm still laughing. My face still hurts. I still have the muscles from, you know, this was a few weeks ago and and what I love to is we're doing this pothole road and, you know, trying to stay on the bike and balance. And, you know, the best part is, is when we rolled up to this place, we made the commitment that we were going to just be present.Dawn Taylor100% all in. Jenny RyceAnd then whatever happens from, you know, whether we get scrapes and bumps, whether we bail, whether we walk, whatever it is we're going to, we're going to take this on and we're and I'm, I'm pedaling. I'm like "Pothole!" Dawn TaylorIt's like, it was like a comedy routine. That was absolutely hilarious. Jenny RyceBut of course, we didn't realize, again, we're talking third world country experience to a degree. Right? Our handlebars. So at this point this is the better bike and we're in the bike doing the things down the path. And we realize the handlebars actually aren't secure. The front steering, Dawn TaylorOh no, they're not secure. Jenny RyceLike pivoting back and forth. So, anyway, the cool part was, is not only do we survive it. When I looked at you and I said, "So who's leading the way home?" And you're like, "I'm in!"Dawn TaylorOh, yeah, we fully did, we fully did. Jenny RyceYou're like, I'm driving on the way home and. I would love for you to share what it felt like to prove to yourself that when you trust yourself, go for it. What did it feel like? Dawn TaylorYou know what I think more than anything, it's not giving a shit what anyone else thinks. Right? It was a piece of, it was a split second decision of, what are the judgments of other people that are going to happen if I do this? If we fall, if we screw this up, if our bike breaks down and we're standing on the side of the road, whatever. Whatever it was. And the minute that came up, I was like, "Oh, hell no. I am not going to stop myself from living because of a judgment from somebody else."Jenny RyceAmen. Dawn TaylorAnd that was the feeling that kind of went through that entire day, because from there we then went to the ocean. And this little area, and we're swimming and we're doing our thing, and I'm in the ocean and we just got run over by boats because we went outside of the area that we were supposed to be in, which was probably really dumb. Jenny RyceSlight little rebels, just saying. Dawn TaylorOh my gosh, they're like, stay within this cordoned area. We're like, I see a hole in the fence, let's swim underneath it. Like, literally we were like breaking out, like we were in jail. It was very funny. But again, when I wanted to paddleboard because this is a massive fear and a judgment I'd put on myself and all these things. And when even the instructors were like, "Hmm, yeah, no." And I was like, "Uh, yeah, actually I am. And watch me go." Right. And throughout that entire day. And this was something that was really interesting, is from that excursion to another island that we went to, was it Honduras? In Roatan Island? We did this excursion where we drove like buggies that they called buggies. We drove buggies through the through the jungle again, horrible steering. The thing died every 30 seconds. We had to restart it like, it was an epic shit show. And covered in mud and you couldn't. I've never had mud on my body that you couldn't actually get off. And it dyed your skin. Oh yeah, it was wild. But like, we did that and then we went to, um, this nature preserve, and we held sloths and fed toucans, and I've got a very healthy fear of animals. So that was facing it, another fear. And we did that. And then we went to the ocean. And there were similar people. Some of the same people were on this tour as the previous one. And we saw some of the same people, and they started to comment on how what we were doing was inspiring them to do things. Jenny RyceMhm. Dawn TaylorAnd it was when we got to the ocean at that resort and the water was, the beach was beautiful, but the sand walking in was disgusting. It was like slimy mud that you had to walk through. But there were coral reefs, what, 100 feet out? Yeah. Or so. You had to get to this like slimy, sludgy -Jenny RyceI had Dawn floating so I could push her along.Dawn TaylorBecause I'm terrified of seaweed. Like petrified of seaweed. Did not face that fear at all. Okay, I didn't face that one. Jenny RyceYou did, because there was a place that you had to put your feet down. Dawn TaylorOh, I did it. I was not happy, though. We did scream. Jenny RycePeople will come rescue you. Dawn TaylorYes. And people just kind of figured out that I had to be pushed everywhere. So I am, like, very, very buoyant. And so I kind of stay, we're really high up on water and you could just, like, shove me like a beach ball. Jenny RyceDragged her around. Dawn Taylor You totally did. It was hilarious. You dragged me all over her. shoes on. Jenny RyceSo, let's be clear. I had water shoes on. She's on, and you did not. That is true. It was easier for me to step in the back.Dawn Taylor Oh, okay, guys, this dirt was so gross. Like, it was so disgusting that 99% of people did not ever set foot in that ocean. But we went out and there was this other, there was like a mother-daughter group. They were on the same cruise, and we had seen them around a few times, and they ended up joining us out there, and I decided to face my fear of snorkeling. And we got out there and anything, so because of some of my traumas in the past, anything that's constricting on my face or feels like it's holding me down or there's like any panic, if not breathing or like tightness around my neck had anything causes like sheer terror, panic in me. And so when we put the snorkel mask on because it was the full face one where you don't have to have like the separate piece in your mouth. I thought I was going to die. Jenny RyceMhm. Dawn TaylorAnd I don't even know how to describe the terror. That is probably the only word for it that went through my body in that moment. And I put it on, and I think I yanked it off right away and was like, okay, we're doing this. But here's where I want to challenge people. Yes, it was terrifying, but it did not kill me. Jenny RyceMhm. Dawn TaylorIt did not kill me. And I say this all the time. I have statistically to date overcome every single hard thing that I've been faced with. Every single day that I thought I would not make it through a day. Every single hard thing that I thought was going to kill me, every single thing that I was like, nope, I'm not strong enough to do. This girl is still here. Which means I have actually overcome all of those things. And so that is this belief that constantly runs in the back of my head is this the thing that's going to take out my average? Because right now I have a 100% success rate. Is this the thing that will actually wreck my average? And if so, what makes this one so much bigger than the other ones,  right? And I refused to have floated that far out through that nasty ass dirt. It was a very entertaining day, to not suck it up and try it. Right? And to not face that terror. And I'm talking like debilitating, body freezing, heart racing. If a medical doctor was there, they probably would have said I was having a panic attack. And I was like, no, fuck it. I put that mask back on and I went. I put my face under the water and I just did it. I just did it. And as my heart's racing and I can hardly breathe and I'm panicking, I was like, "No, stop. Breathe through this. Because no feeling is permanent." Right? Like there's no feeling on this planet that is actually permanent. So this terror can leave too. And so as I just like floated and breathed and then I like went far away from you guys because I was like, if I'm going to have a full blown panic attack, I'm not going to do it right in front of all these people from a cruise ship. But I went and I did it. And then I popped out of the water and I took the mask off, and I looked around, and then I did it again, and I did it again, and I did it again, and I saw a lobster. And then I forced myself to hold my breath and go under the water to get a better view of it, which was not comfortable because I because of the panic at the beginning, I didn't I didn't ever, like adjust the mask to be what it needed to be for my face. There's water coming in like - Jenny RyceYou were borrowing my mask.Dawn TaylorLike, nothing about this was setting me up for success other than my sheer stubborn determination. And I came back and I stood up and I went to take the mask off and I couldn't get the clips, so the whole thing just came right off my face. I was like, nope, nopenope, get this thing off my face. But I don't know if I could have been more proud of myself in that moment. Jenny RyceI was going to ask, what did that feel like? Dawn TaylorIt felt like I had overcome a pain. From when I was 12. Right? That that little, that girl, that young woman, that 12 year old girl that didn't ever believe I could go back into water did something that I have fought so hard for so many years. The amount of times I've signed up for snorkeling and ever gone. The amount of times that I've tried and could not even get my face near the water and I just was like, oh no, I can't. Sorry. Right? And in that moment, I could have made every single excuse in the book, oh, I don't have a mask. And okay, we tried to find me a mask. Like we spent hours driving around, phoning stores, all of these things to try to find a mask prior to so that I could get one fit for my face, that it would work like I was willing to put the money out to face this fear. And we couldn't, like anywhere. We went to more Dick's Sporting Goods stores and you could imagine and just could not find what we needed. And surf stores, like, we went to all the places, but, it was this moment of sheer pride, like, so friggin proud of myself, but then excited to live. And that was really cool. Like the feeling of not just like I faced my massive fear but like I faced my massive fear, so what does this now crack open in the future.?Jenny RyceWell, and that's what I really want to touch on. I do want to get back to our paddleboarding story, but I want to keep going on this train just for right now. What do you feel? You shared a lot of things with me in that moment about what this meant for you. And that's your story to tell. Dawn TaylorOh, no, you can say it, Jenny Rycebut I want to hear from you. Like what? You felt that cracked open. Because facing our fears, sometimes we think, well, what's the point? Yeah. Like it's way more comfortable to stay in all of this, right? Yeah. So what did it mean? For you to all of a sudden, "Hey, not only can I swim in the ocean, I can put my face under the water and be under the water." Like, what did that crack open for you? And what does that future look like? Dawn TaylorYou know, one of the biggest is, my husband and I have very, very different hobbies. And one of our struggles in traveling together is he's a water baby. He just wants to play in the water all the time. He wants to body surf and scuba dive and snorkel and swim. And like the boy, could live in the ocean. And we have had very divided, separated vacations for 24 years of marriage because I couldn't do it. I couldn't do it. And he had made a comment on our previous trips, so we had gone on a birthday trip with our nephew in January. And he had made a comment when I was we were in like in Saint Martin in the ocean. Another cruise. Love cruising, by the way, but on another cruise Jenny RyceI'll endorse that as well. Dawn TaylorI'm like, I'm like a crazy cruise lady. But he had made a comment. He's like, I might actually enjoy traveling with you now. And not that he hated traveling with me. But it wasn't fun for him. It wasn't enjoyable because he wanted to go do these things and have these adventures and do these excursions and live. And I was too busy letting the fear kill me on the beach.Jenny RyceMhm. Dawn TaylorRight? And all of a sudden it was like, hey, wait, you mean we could actually have fun together? We could have adventures together. We could try these things together. And even just that. That was the day. So we had no internet, cell service. Like we didn't have any of that on the cruise. And that was the day that when we got off that beach, I turned on my phone and paid the obscene amount of money per minute to phone my husband in tears and tell him that I had actually snorkeled. And not just once, but twice. And I did it. And I want to do it again. And I'm excited. And that has connected us. And I mean, it's something so silly, but that has connected us and made us so excited for our next trip. Jenny RyceWhich is incredible, you know, because I think about when we were at the cenote which kind of will lead us back to the paddle board story. When we were at the cenote, there was a gentleman with us because he was by himself, because his family, that was not his family. His family couldn't do the bike riding and wasn't interested in going snorkeling or  They had no desire. You could tell he was having fun. And it was lovely because he latched on to us and we got along great. And it was wonderful to, you know, meet somebody new and chat. But it did cross my mind that this, this gentleman would probably enjoy much more being with his significant other or his partner providing, and again, I love and honor that people are willing to still do the things that they love to do and not, you know, force other people to, to participate. Because of course, there's no joy in that either. But to see your face light up when you're like. How did I get those dawdling? It was amazing. Absolutely amazing. And I was I was honored to witness it and to be a part of it. And, I loved it, I loved it. Dawn TaylorI don't think I ever thought I would, if that makes sense. Right? Like, even being able to have a shower and put my face under the water has been such a shift over the last few years. As ridiculous as that might sound. But it's giving myself permission to live. And our fears, our fears are not "Should I wear this?" I always look at it as like, you can fear something once and it's like a little baby fear. And then our brain attaches more meaning to it and more meaning and more meaning and more meaning. And it becomes a bigger story and a bigger story and a bigger story and a bigger story. And it becomes this, like, out of control thing where we are so scared of it. That we will kill part of ourselves to not feel the fear again. We will literally stop living in areas of our lives so that we don't feel that fear again. And to have had so many experiences over these last couple of years of  pushing myself to drive past a certain point, forcing myself to walk with snakes. Forcing myself to go to like, even our local zoo and go into the reptile area and, like, stand there and stare at snakes. Like, I don't think you understand the fear in me unless you're terrified of something that I feel. But when I can sit there and actually, like, breathe through it, talk my way through it, feel wherever the feels are in my body. Give myself permission to feel them and but also release them and be okay every single time that happens. It builds that muscle in me, that muscle in me of like, "No, no, no, nothing's going to scare me and nothing's going to hold me back." And it has made me so excited to live. Like, I don't even know how to describe it. Like, I'm so excited to live. My poor husband is going crazy with my like 295-day countdown to the next time I get to swim in the ocean. And he's like, "Oh my word. I never.: he's like, "In 28 years of being with you, I never thought this is who you'd be." Jenny RyceWell, I love it because we've kind of created a monster in a really good way.Dawn TaylorShe's a monster. Jenny RyceOkay, so let's let's let's visit back. We've just gotten off the tandem bikes. We get on to the we've done this two note. We've had lunch. Dawn TaylorWe've the Jaguar Orange bus.Jenny Ryce Right. We get on this groovy bus and they're playing the coolest old rock and roll. It was actually a really good time.Dawn Taylor It was very entertaining. Jenny RyceYeah. So we get to the beach. We again go out past the, you know, we're out in the zone doing the things and, you know, maybe going out a little farther than we're supposed to, but, you know, and you're like, “I want to try paddleboarding.” Uh, so we swim back in. And like you say, you get a little bit of resistance. Dawn TaylorOh, I full-on, like, asked to paddleboard. He did an up and down and was like, well I don't know if you'll be able to and I was do you remember? I was like, “Because I'm fat?” and the poor guy's face. And I was like, “Oh, cause I'm fat. Okay, cool, cool. Good, good.” Right?Jenny RyceAnd you know what? What kind of frustrated me as there was another lady that would not stand up on the board. No, because I think that was the same response that she had had to. You know, had we been there, I think we would

Why you would want to listen to this episode…As a father to three kids and a youth coach, Andrew Hovelson takes lifting up the next generation seriously. However, as he’s begun to notice in life, modern-day marvels like technology, social media and current-day philosophy and life lessons seem to be messing up our kids. In this episode, Andrew tells us how he believes we should support today’s youth and give them both the practical skills and the mental fortitude they need to push forward in life. Who this is forImparting knowledge to young people and giving them the time and space to grow through their trials is no easy feat. As adults, some of us can be impatient and even be insensitive to what they’re going through. With that in mind, this episode is for those who wish to know more about how to navigate being more involved with the youth in their lives. About Dawn TaylorDawn Taylor is the professional ass-kicker, hope giver, life strategist, trauma specialist, and all-around badass. Dawn's journey into helping others heal began when she took her personal recovery from the trauma she experienced in her life into her own hands. While at times unconventional, Dawn’s strategic methods have helped hundreds heal from traumas such as issues related to infidelity,  overcoming addiction,  working through PTSD from sexual, emotional, and physical abuse, as well as helping cult survivors thrive. Dawn’s work has empowered entrepreneurs, stay-at-home moms, and CEOs alike to be superheroes in their own lives. Having completed thousands of hours of training from many professional programs, including the Robbins Madanes Training Institute, Dawn’s blunt honesty will challenge your thinking, broaden your awareness, and help you achieve the outstanding results you are worthy of.Connect with Dawn here at The Taylor Way: Consultation Call | Website | Facebook | Instagram | LinkedInGet to know Dawn on a deeper level through her book! Order HereP.S. I Made It, is a powerful story that grabs you through its lack of pretension and honesty. Every page reveals another layer of curious wonder at both Dawn’s life and the power of hope that moves within each of us. Dawn’s hope is that you use this book as a resource to deal with your struggles. Share it with someone who needs it. We all want to feel like someone understands what it’s like to suffer through something and – come out the other side. She describes her life as “horrifically beautiful and beautifully horrific. Guest BioAndrew comes from a unique background of art and business. He graduated from the Guthrie Theater magna cum laude with a BFA in Acting. He also holds a MFA in Acting from NYU Tisch School of the Arts’ Graduate Acting Program, which accepts 1% of applicants.  He has appeared on Broadway, Film, and Television, and runs the top life coaching company for teens and young adults worldwide, Southwestern Student Coaching.Andrew has a passion for students, education, and entrepreneurship. He lives with his wife and three young sons in Hell’s Kitchen, NYC, they aptly named “The Testosterone Factory.”Guest Social LinksSouthwestern Coaching - https://southwesternconsulting.com/coaches/andrew-hovelsonInstagram - https://www.instagram.com/andrewcoachesLinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/andrew-hovelson-9661a38a/Thanks for listening!Thanks so much for listening to our podcast! If you enjoyed this episode and think that others could benefit from listening, please share it using the social media buttons on this page. Do you have some feedback or questions about this episode? Leave a comment in the section below!Follow the podcastIf you want to receive new podcast episodes automatically, you can follow us on Apple Podcasts or in your favourite podcast app.Please leave us an Apple Podcasts reviewRatings and reviews from our listeners are extremely valuable to us and greatly appreciated. They help our podcast rank higher on Apple Podcasts, which exposes our show to more awesome listeners like you. If you have a minute, please leave an honest review.Views Expressed, Legal and Medical DisclaimerThis podcast (including any/all site pages, blog posts, blog comments, forums, videos, audio recordings, etc.) is not intended to replace the services of a physician, nor does it constitute a doctor-patient relationship. Information is provided for informational purposes only and is not a substitute for professional medical advice. You should not use the information on this podcast for diagnosing or treating a medical or health condition. If you have or suspect you have an urgent medical problem, promptly contact your professional healthcare provider. Any application of the recommendations in this podcast/website is at the listener/reader's discretion. The views and opinions expressed are those of guests and do not necessarily reflect the opinion or policy of Dawn Taylor, The Taylor Way and or its Associates. The before mentioned are not liable for any direct or indirect claim or loss. TRANSCRIPTDawn TaylorI am your host, Dawn Taylor, and today I have the privilege and the honour of talking to you, Andrew Hovelston. If you don't know him, you need to. So who is Andrew? Before we get to our topic, Andrew is an actor. He is a passionate guy in art and business. He graduated from Guthrie Theater, magna cum laude with a BFA in acting. He also holds an MFA. I don't even know what that is, but we're going to ask, acting from NYU TIsch School of the Art graduate Acting program, which only accepts 1% of applicants. This guy is impressive. He has appeared on Broadway, film, television, and runs the top life coaching company for teens and young adults worldwide, Southwestern Student Coaching. He also has a passion for student education entrepreneurship. He lives with his wife and three young sons in Hell's Kitchen, NYC, which is New York. Manhattan, New York that they aptly named the Testosterone Factory. Because if you've ever been to New York, you know the apartments are not large. So, I cannot even imagine living in one with three kids. But today, guys, we're going to have a bit of a controversial topic today. So, I hope you listen to this all the way through and listen to it with an open heart, because I am incredibly excited about this. We're going to talk about how you're screwing up your kids. And how we as a society are screwing up our kids. So, Andrew, take it from here. Welcome to the show. Andrew HovelstonWe should have a little disclaimer, along the bottom or, you know, that pops in here that says Andrew does have three kids himself. So, he is in the active process of screwing kids up with everyone else who's listening. Dawn TaylorAnd I don't have kids, so I really I guess I'm not allowed to have an opinion, but I work with the kids that are getting screwed up when they show up in my office as young adults. So, you and I had, we met through an event we were both at forever ago, and we've been having this amazing month of conversations. Talking about mental health and kids and youth and, you know, just life in general. Business owners, all things, just all the things. And one of the topics that came up when you're talking one day was how we're actually screwing up our kids. And we talked about how parents don't want to hear this. And I said, you know what, let's do a podcast on this. Let's talk about this. And also like in that give some tips, but also some like, hey, in this way we are. And I even say like we collectively as a society. We are screwing up kids. So talk to me about your thoughts on that. Oh, really quick before we start, what is the MFA? Is that a master's in fine arts? Oh, okay. Wow. Impressive. Andrew HovelstonIt's, uh. I always lead with that in my bio because it gets the hook. And then we ended up not talking about acting at all. We end up, rightfully so, talking about the next generation and coaching kids. But it's a lot of shiny objects for, you know, people in social media, short attention span to go. I guess I'd better listen to this guy. Dawn TaylorMaybe because he actually has some letters. Andrew HovelstonIt's some letters behind his name. Yeah, Dawn TaylorI love it. Well, Mr. Letters behind your name. Let's talk about how we're messing up our kids. So what we were just talking about prior to even hitting record is this toxic positivity that is going on in this world right now. And this complete bullshit idea on we should just all be following our hearts. Well let's, let's just go there. Let's just go there. What are your thoughts on this?Andrew HovelstonYeah. I mean, my thoughts are. I have many, many thoughts. My overwhelming thesis and hypothesis are different. But my hypothesis on the grand experiment of life, which is parenting is you need to follow your heart when you can pay for it. That's it. Full stop. Follow your heart when you can pay for it, and when you can learn how to do it with great mental health. Dawn TaylorI'm not disagreeing at all. Andrew HovelstonOne of the biggest challenges, uh, I find. In my time coaching kids is that they are stuck between two worlds and have no navigation on how to bounce back and forth from them. The first world is from their parents, their grandparents, people that are 10 to 20 years older than them. So sorry, 20 to 30 years older than them. Dawn TaylorSo it's like, whoa, what? Yeah. What kids are you working with? Andrew HovelstonAll right, well, I grew up in a small town. I. I grew up in a small town. Sometimes that ten gets pushed to, you know, 18 years older. But let's go 20 to, you know, 20 to 30, maybe even 40 years older than that. Right. It grew up in a different time. It was a time where, where 401 K's, where pensions existed, where the cost of living was exponentially lower than it is now. Um, at least in America, where the labor protections were far greater. Where if you didn't have labor protections, your ability to negotiate a living wage in a job was more, um, where even if you took a chance on yourself and your business and your passion when you failed, if you failed, it was far easier due to just the simple economics of life to pick yourself back up numerous times and multiple times. It's not that way right now. Dawn Taylor Not at all. Andrew HovelstonAnd and so kids are on social media all the time, which I think is awesome. My wife is an absolute badass, and she runs an awesome online fitness business. And I am a huge fan, I follow a ton of entrepreneurs online who have taught me a ton. Dawn TaylorYeah. Andrew HovelstonThe reality is that when a social media influencer or not even an influencer, somebody who runs an absolutely great company comes on and they say follow your passion. More often than not, what that is equated to with young people is just putting your passion online. Literally put your passion on Snapchat, Instagram, Facebook. And they're not saying learn how to monetize it. They're not saying, I actually built a personal brand after I built a supplement brand, or after I built the long and boring work of building a plumbing company. Right. Or being a professor for 40 years. Right. And now I have this knowledge as a professor, and somebody taught me how to film myself. Or real estate. You know, that's huge online right now. Real estate. Dawn TaylorOh, ridiculous.Andrew Hovelston Just be a real estate millionaire. Sure. Absolutely. You can, you can, you can buy a house for a million bucks now and then. Can you deal with your toilets and termites and tenants? Right. And so a 15 year old just thinks, no, I'm going to put that online and become a YouTuber. Okay. Dawn TaylorMhm. Andrew HovelstonOr a Twitch streamer. Right. Because that's my passion. Well the reality is that that's what you see as your passion. If you're going to be a Twitch streamer or a YouTuber, your day to day life is much different than playing video games. It's investing in the tools in order for you to sound good. To look good. It's being okay with a 15, 16, 17, 18 year old brain when you film 12 hours of you playing Grand Theft Auto and you forgot to click record. And the work is now, you think your life is over. And, or I'm an artist. I'm an actor. Right. Follow your passion. I love following my passion, I followed my passion also. Part of my passion was having a marriage and having three kids and their realities that come with that, which means you need to have money coming into your bank account. Now, that doesn't mean that you have to earn the money. It can come from parents who support you or family money that supports you, right? Or a cash windfall that supports you. But unless we talk about that with young people, the simple follow your passion for young people gets incredibly disoriented. Disorienting because I coach them. Right. Dawn TaylorAndrew HovelsonMhm. Um, let's say a young actor, right, moves to LA and says, well, my parents told me to follow my passion. I'm supposed to follow my passion, but my passion, I'm not passionate about that. I can't pay rent at the end of the month. I'm not passionate about that. I'm really lonely and the rest of my friends are going into a job every day and have a social life that is just a byproduct of working. I'm not. I'm not passionate about that. I thought, following my passion of creating characters in my mind and my body and my spirit was going to be enough. And it's like, well, it's a lot like a marriage, that it's not enough to just follow your passion. Dawn TaylorWell, can we talk about two with that? Then becomes this massive feeling of rejection and I'm failing and I suck and all of those things. And then not only that, but then we have this world of people out there. And, I mean, I did an entire podcast on - is the self-help industry harming more than healing? So people know my thoughts on this if you've listened to that episode, but then we have this whole world of like, no, you just have to be at a higher vibrational frequency and know you just have to be aligning with it, and you just have to fill in the blanks and it's magically going to flow. And I don't agree. I don't agree with that. I talk to people every single day. I talked to someone a little while ago. He literally quit a major job. He's had one client in five years trying to build a business. “But no, this is my passion.” And I'm like. What are you like? Go get a damn job. Like, when did, j-o-b, when did having a job become, like, the ultimate failure in life? And almost this thing to be looked down on instead of hey, you know what? Based on everything from my mental health to my need for security, to my dreams, for my future, to my responsibilities. I actually really just want a paycheck. And then my passions can be my hobbies, my passion can be my side hustle, my passions can be those things. And I truly believe that we are not even just screwing up our kids. We are screwing up ourselves with this. I talked to a young business owner this week and I said, seriously, do me one thing, if nothing else. And he was like, what? And I said, do not make yourself your business. And your business yourself, I said, because then what happens is your worth becomes your business. And if at some point in your life you can no longer do it, you don't want to do it. It doesn't work for what you're doing. You can make your resume up and go get a job and be fine. And he's like, yeah, but what about you? You've been doing this for nine years. And I was like, yeah, and I could get a job tomorrow and be okay with that. And I think that's like, we are screwing that up. We're not teaching anyone responsibility anymore. Andrew HovelsonI mean, that's the big thing, right? Is that in our coaching, um, with Southwestern Student Coaching, is that you can follow your passion, but. But far more important. Then your passion or following or the suck it up mentality, right? That's the other thing that we're killing our kids with is just suck it up. I don't care if you don't like it, suck it up, suck it up. And the kids are like, oh, I guess I don't even have any room for passion now, and I just have to suck it up and do stuff I hate for the next 50 years. And that gets disorienting, because then they talk to their friends, they go online and they see, well, these guys are all following their passion. My mom, dad, uncle, brothers, sister have been really successful, and what they're telling me to do is suck it up. And so what's in between? Well, what's in between for us is, passion has to become. It has to become the not the toxic positivity self-help. But the executive skills of what is self-talk is the discipline behind choosing the words you say to yourself and believing them. What is the discipline behind how to set a goal and achieve it? I don't care if your goal is I need to go get a job at Taco Bell, or if your goal is I need to start a little dropshipping business or lemonade stand because that's my passion. None of that matters. The outcome does not matter. Dawn TaylorIt's the skills that you're developing. Andrew HovelsonIt is the skill set you're developing. It is 120,000,000% the skill set you're developing. And that goes for top performers. We coach Utah Olympians. We coach people from MIT grad school. We coach people that are high schoolers that are headed into Ivy League schools. And we coach a bunch of people that are unmotivated and on drugs and alcohol. Right? What's far more important than any of the results that they get is their ability to seal with challenges and shorten the time in which they forgive themselves. Learn and then go take action again. So a kid that gets his first C or her first C and spins out of control. Spins out of control like their life is over. Because we've told them to suck it up. Right? And you didn't work hard enough if you didn't get the results that you wanted, is the exact same problem as follow your passion and get all F's. But at least you're following your passion. Because it's not teaching the discipline, the skill set and habits and the mindset that they can go do whatever they want. Go be an engineer. Go be a plumber. And if you want to learn how to, you can make a lot of money just being a plumber, not just being a plumber. That's pejorative. Uh, you can make a lot of money being a plumber if you want to make more money, but also have a little more stress. Build yourself a plumbing business. But you're no longer a plumber. You are now a business owner, right? And so don't look at the guy in your hometown that says, just be a plumber and make millions. You have to figure out how to build that plumbing business, and that takes a different set of skills. And we're not telling that to our kids. I'm saying plumbers can make a lot of money seeing social media. People can be millionaires. Right. We're saying, just go play your French horn and you'll be successful. I live in a building. There's a lot of French horn players here. Success is relative. They might be super happy. I don't know if they have the money they need. I have no idea. Right. But I hope that is not too, I hope that's tangible enough. That were really, really, really messing up the future generation, um, by not giving them a path to run on. I always think of this vehicle ability and mindset, right. And I think about that in business more. But how have we been able to translate that to coaching to 320 kids in nine different countries? Right. What is the vehicle in which you're going to learn the skill set or how I talk about it is what is the framework in which you're going to learn the skill set of overcoming adversity, learning how to succeed with good mental health, and being kind to yourself. Now it could be a chess club. It could be the football team, right? It could be learning how to be valedictorian. But, you need a framework in which to learn those things, and the framework doesn't matter. You just have to have a framework and it can't be only 1 or 2 frameworks. Follow your passion or suck it up. Those aren't frameworks. Dawn TaylorNo, it's interesting. I was talking to some have a lot of nieces and nephews that I have really cool relationships with, and it was probably four years ago that my one nephew was like, oh, I don't want to be an adult. And I was like, what do you mean? He's like, oh no, I'd rather just kill myself. And I was like, oh, hi, can we have a conversation? Like this is extreme. And we did. We've had so many conversations around this and thankfully he's come out of this headspace. But we had a really interesting conversation. He's like, no. He's like, why would I want to become my parents? And I was like, explain, like define that. What do you mean by that? And he goes, well, look, he's like, think about it. He goes and everyone online is talking about this right now. He's like, yeah, my parents have a job and they're doing their thing. But then they complain about it all the time and bitch about it all the time, and they're miserable at the end of the day. And it doesn't matter how hard you work, you never have enough money. And he's like being an adult really looks miserable. Why would I want to do it? And I remember thinking about that, and we spent hours talking about this and how we could shift this and how we could change this. And I said, you know. Because he's like, you're happy in your work. He's like, how did that happen? And I said, you know, a couple things. One is I stepped out of the expectations that people had of me. And I wasn't afraid to fail. Andrew HovelsonYeah. Dawn TaylorAnd I said, I don't know if it's because I had failed so much in my life. I had fallen down so many times in my life that it didn't become scary anymore. Sure. But it was like, yeah, why not? It's not going to fall again. Cool. I know how to get back up. And I think that is a thing that we're not teaching our kids either. Nowadays. Like you can't even fall on a you can't even fall on a playground anymore. I don't know how the state says, but Canada is like, no, no, no, we're gonna make it all foam and we're gonna make it all soft and gentle because we don't want anyone to get bruised. We don't want to get hurt. Right? Like it's gone so far in the opposite direction. It's like we're going to swoop in and rescue you. Anytime there is a problem, anytime there is a discomfort. We don't ever want you to have to face adversity. And I think that our kids need to know that they need to learn how to grieve. They need to learn how to fail. There's consequences for action sometimes. And no, you didn't finish your homework, so you did get in trouble in class. And I'm not going to call your teacher to rescue you. That's just your reality.Right?Andrew HovelsonYeah. Part of what gets really challenging in parenting. Um, and from the parents that I work with and, you know, parenting myself is that the kids from, you know, about ten years old to maybe 24, 25, have a different idea or definition of what failure is. And while I 1,000,000% believe maybe to a fault, right, that they need more and more and more and more failure and more challenges and more challenges. What we do as parents that we really screw things up on is not acknowledging when they feel like they've had a major failure. Right when there and then. And then giving them the tools. This is the most important part. We all screw up on, is absolutely giving them the tools to recognize, to not discount their failure, but to recognize that next time they can change it. So my eight year old and we're screwing our kids. I mean, I'm gonna screw my kids up, right? But it was like, it was like a valuable lesson. I was like, um, our philosophy in our household is that even in third grade, we're not going to tell you, um, we're going to make sure you get your homework done. Right. Your eight year old brain can remember to do it. But you know what? If you forget that folder on the table, right? Or underneath a chair? That's not our responsibility. It's really not. And what we can help you do is right after you get your homework done, we will remind you the first couple times to put it right in your backpack because that's definitely going with you tomorrow to school. But it's not my job to remind you every single morning because then your pattern is I don't have to think about it right when I get it done because somebody else, mom or dad, it doesn't even matter. You can replace any adult or any brother or sister who will remind me to go on to the next step of my homework, which is actually bringing it to school to turn it in. Okay, long story longer, uh, I'm like, this is amazing. I'm a genius parent. This is like going to my kids who are going to be so successful and whatever they want to be. And, uh, he, you know, my eight year old forgets it, and we're on our way to school and he mass hysteria, he's like, I can't, it's my life is over. I will never, my teacher is going to get so mad and I can never and I get to school and I'm like, all right. And I'm trying to be like, okay, what did we learn? You know, and we'll implant this into your brain. Now, you'll remember it when you're 18 and when you're 38 for bigger challenges to solve. Get to school. And as teachers like what went on and I was like I actually don't know what there's something just besides the homework. And he goes you didn't sign it and I can't, you didn't sign my homework and now I'm not going to get credit for it. And she looks at him or the teacher, she goes, oh that's it. He's like, dude. Get into class. And it was just a breaking of his pattern. And where I kind of look back where I screwed up, is that not I would have never told him to have his homework again. Right. But I could have got down and been like, that really sucks. Do you feel like your life is over? Huh? You know what, it might be, but we're not going to know until we go talk to your teacher.  And I think most parents let's forward ten years and their kids are 18 and they're not turning in their homework. Right. You're saying your kid is a failure or you're talking to your son? Why don't you turn in your homework? You're lazy. Right? Why don't you turn in your homework? You're never going to be able to do anything, right. Why don't you turn in your homework? See, I told you, if you just would have turned it in, your results would have been different. When really what we've missed over the last eight years, from 10 to 18, is all of those little times, those tiny little times where that kid didn't raise his hand in class or he or she had another, that kid, even for the popular kids in school, say you're stupid, right? For them. And they're afraid to take that risk and fail. Um, because of how they're going to be judged. And we didn't catch that stuff early on enough. That's saying life is going to be hard. And, you know, this time that you got that B or you got that B, um, you can get an A next time. But it might not just be hard work. It might be some different things. You might need to go ask your teacher for some help, reason you might need to think through the fact that, excuse my French, but you're not a shitty person. Right. You're just around five kids who make you feel terrible about yourself. That would be hard for me to get in any two. And acknowledge that and then say, you know what? You know what, Billy? Johnny? Rachel? It's not going to help you. To blame them. If you want what's the tools that we need to do in order to get that? And if you don't want the A, fine. Or not, fine. I mean, you know, you choose your parenting style if you don't want the A, fine. Um, but what we need to do here is if you get a D and you feel bad. And part of the reason is that you're having a horrible time at school. What can you do to not have a horrible time at school and the results will speak to themselves? Dawn TaylorBut I have to wonder, like, not even wonder. It's, we don't create critical thinkers as a society anymore. No, we haven't in so many years. And so we expect our kids. We expect these younger generations to process, to think things through, to try things in a new way, a different way. They don't know how. They actually don't know how because nobody has to fight for an answer anymore. I have 72 spices in a spice store. I love using spices when I cook, and I had a 22 year old in my office that day and they're like, I heard you have a crazy cool spice drawer. And I laughed. And it's beautiful. It's very organized in alphabetical order and laid out beautifully, like it's a masterpiece of artwork. And I said, yeah. And they looked at it and they're like, oh, this is life goals. And they went, you know what? I don't even know how to use those though. And I laughed and I said, I said you know what you do and. And she was like. And I said you just play with them. Andrew HovelsonYep. Dawn TaylorAnd she went, what do you mean? And I said, you can Google how to use spices together. You can Google combinations. You can do that. Is that. Or you can open the lid of one and open the lid of another and hold them both under your nose at the same time and smell it and see what happens. Does it smell amazing, or does it smell nasty because you grabbed like, cinnamon and pickle seasoning or something, right? And it's like, oh, that's really bad. Okay, so put one down and try something else. But we don't live in a world that pushes, “Just try it.” Try it and see what happens. Fail, fail. Have it make something that's disgusting, laugh about it, and then try again tomorrow. We don't live in that world anymore. Where it's like, no, if that is making you that miserable, if it's that gross, it's okay to throw it out. It's okay to quit. It's okay to walk away from something. I mean, there's a fine line. There's a fine line of like, no, it doesn't make me happy because you're not actually learning a skill set in that of, like, sometimes there has to be a little bit of like. No, you need to face some discomfort. Andrew HovelsonI mean, my theory on this. Right. But whether it's right or wrong, I'm a, you know, I'm still I'm still young enough that people listening to this will be like, man, that guy doesn't know anything, and I'm okay with that. But my theory on this is that, pre-social media pre-pandemic and even pre, you know, probably ten years ago, the rise of the, um, of the idol worshiping of entrepreneurship. I'm an entrepreneur. Right. So, but the rise of entrepreneurship is that the failures often would happen outside of your occupation. So they gave you the safety and framework in which to like to go date someone new. And then you got to be like on and like that. And then you would just tell them on Saturday morning, I didn't have a good time on Friday night, so we're not going to date anymore. And that would be okay, because Monday morning you had some stability of going back to your job. Right? Or maybe I want to be a woodworker. And then you put up the shelf in your house. Nobody knows that you put up the shelf in your house. You just decided after your, you know, your job as a middle manager at Target Corporation that you wanted to be a woodworker. So you put up the shelf in your house in Minnesota and then you put, you know, the nice china on it. And a week later the shelf fell over and you were like, oh, dang. Number one, I didn't enjoy putting up that shelf. And number two, I really suck at it. I don't want to get any better at that. But you know what? I still get to go back to my job on Monday or Tuesday. Dawn TaylorStill have that safety, that security, that paycheck. Andrew HovelsonExactly. But now the failure and the trying and the, you know, the challenges are wrapped up in. If I don't succeed now, I can have the outsized returns and therefore I have nothing tomorrow. And I hope that makes sense. But there has to be as your, you know, as you're a kid, you're it's a lot like an entrepreneur from 10 to 25. You have to try things, make mistakes, try things, make mistakes, try things, make mistakes, try things, make mistakes and how to school. However, when anyone feels about the school system right, my kids go to public schools. So that's where I'm coming from. But we coach unschooled kids, home schooled kids, uh, public private charter school kids. So I'm a fan of all of it, right. The one thing about education across all of those barriers,  it is a consistent it's a constant of getting slightly better every single day. And so it gives a framework in which kids can fail. And succeed. What they don't realize is part of there terror that we are screwing them up with as adults, right? This has never been part of my narrative, but many adults who say, Hey, you need to do x, y, and z. The framework of their narrative is when they were 18 or 22, they did the same thing. They're in the same job, right? They had the consistency in which to bounce against. Right. And kids are terrified of what happens when I graduate and I'm 18. I don't have that consistency. Dawn TaylorOh, it's so hard. It is so hard on kids right now. And we haven't, we haven't been taught like. 1s I was talking to a friend the other day and. And she's like, I don't know, Don. I don't know when we're talking about business stuff. And and I said, you know what's amazing, and I said, you've really just lived like 12 years as an adult. That's right. What do you mean? And I said, well, 0 to 20 is kind of like your formative years. For easy math, I was like, those are your formative years where it's like, you're in school, you have parents making sure you're fed and you have clothes and you have food on the table, hopefully, and all these things. Right. And so those are your formative years. I said, so you've really only lived from 20 to 30.  And I said, and at this point, the fact that you're unhappy with where you're at or you're worried about your future or all of these things, I said. You still have 30 to 40, 40 to 50, 50 to 60, 60 to 70, 70 to 80, 80 to 90, 90 to 100. Because of modern medicine we are living healthy into our hundreds. Mhm. Yes, you may have screwed up one life that ten years real hard. I was like, you have seven more. You have seven more of those. Think about that for a second. And she was like, huh? And I said, so you could screw up like another five and still have two good ones. I said, but you're not a tree. Move. In the words of I think it's like Charles Duhigg that says that, right? And it's like, you can shift, you can change, you can adjust, you can pivot, you can do all of those things. And I know so many business owners that have shut down companies in the last couple of years and just been like, no, I want a job. Like I want someone else to worry about the clients coming in the door. I want someone else to have to pay the insurance and someone else to carry the stress, and someone else to manage HR and someone else to do all those things. I just, I just want a job.Andrew HovelsonYes, I want to. And I am seeing this 5:00 so often right now. I want to go to happy hour. If I partake in that on Saturday morning, I want to get up and go to a runner's group. You know, on Tuesday afternoon I either want to go to I want to go to Bible study or I want to play, you know, I want to play rec basketball and I don't care if it doesn't make me millions tomorrow. You know, one of the, here's something that I really think about often. And I'm not sure how we solve this, but Gary Vee, however anyone feels about him, right? He's loud. He's been. Dawn TaylorHe's a love it or hate it guy. Andrew Hovelson20 year olds. Gen Zs are not lazy. They're not lazy. They have options. And I agree with that. And what I think people are seeing when they see lazy is that those adults that are saying they're lazy don't remember options. They don't remember options when they were 18, 19, 20. They said they don't remember. They say I didn't really have any options. I was going to work in the family farm or, you know, my dad was running a Northwestern Mutual insurance business. Dawn TaylorSo I had to step into the family business. Andrew HovelsonYeah. Or my mom was in sales, right. Or HR. And so I just did that. I didn't have any options. And then they translate that. And so I went to work. Right. That's what those adults. So I went to work and something that I maybe didn't exactly love, but I just went to work. And they're translating that to an 1819, 20, 22 year old who has options there saying you're lazy and where we've failed as parents. Is to help them critically think about which option to take at any given moment, and then be okay with the consequences. Maybe it succeeds, maybe it fails. And, um, and we'll help guide you as elders in this tribe of homo sapiens to, uh, to really the next phase if it doesn't work out. You know, the best thing that any young person could ever do is go try a bunch of businesses. Have them fail. Go work at a bunch of startups and get laid off. Right? Two things can be true that the best thing somebody could ever do is when you're 22, start a financial practice for the next four years and just do it and just do it. And if you like golf, close a lot of deals on the golf course. You know and retire with money if that's what you want. And build your family and be home at night. And all those things can be true at the same time. We've just had a huge gaping hole in our ability as parents and as elders in this tribe of humans. Help people to help young people understand. What goes into their decision making? And so because we don't understand that and we're not evolved enough, um, as adults to understand how to help them think about their way of thinking, we call them lazy. That's it. We call them lazy, and we're screwing them up. We're screwing them up because they've heard that they're lazy from 15 to 25. And it's just not true. It's not true. You know, go to college. Great. I've gone to seven years of higher education. I believe in college. Right. But go to college and they say, great, are you going to pay for college? And then you say, well, I haven't been able to do that because of the economy the last 20 years and the higher education costs. And they're like, okay, so why should I like - Did you graduate college with debt? Well, yeah, I did. How much was it? It was 20, 20 grand in debt and I worked my tail off and they're like, well, I could- Dawn TaylorWhy would I want to do that? Andrew HovelsonThey're thinking, why would I want to do that? And they're all thinking. They're also thinking I could pay off 20

Dawn Taylor hosts renowned Canadian painter Giselle Denis on the podcast. They explore Giselle’s career as an artist and how her passion for art combined with hard work and will power gave her the necessary drive to succeed through years of struggle to gain recognition.Giselle shares an analogy that has guided her life as she was able to realize success: the analogy of starting her journey as an aircraft carrier on the ocean carrying far too much and moving too slowly. She streamlined her life’s boat by removing distractions and things that weren’t serving her so she could move with more agility into artistic success.Dawn and Giselle discuss why Giselle believes it’s of the utmost importance to be yourself in whatever you do and not strive to copy someone else’s success. Giselle explains some of her early art career struggles and why she doesn’t coach other artists. The episode is a unique portrait of the hard work behind a prominent artist.About Giselle Denis:I connect to people in a unique way through my Live Painting Experience. Art has always had a way of breaking down barriers. Time and again it has provided a place where strangers can find common ground and open the door to communicate with one another. I paint Hope. My message is Hope. My story is Hope and my vision is all about Hope.  I have a goal to raise $1 million for charity. My live painting for charities has raised over $765,000. One of my paintings sold for $50,000 for Little Warriors. I donate 100% of the money raised through my paintings. I couldn't be happier doing what I love and sharing it with the world. Thank you for reading and for showing interest in my journey.—Resources:“Smart Women Finish Rich: 9 Steps to Creating a Rich Future” by David Bach__ Dawn Taylor - The Taylor Way: website | facebook | instagram | linkedinGiselle Denis: website | instagram | youtubeTranscriptDawn Taylor  00:09Hello, hello. Today on The Taylor Talks podcast, we have the amazing Giselle Denis. She's a world renowned artist, she's a mom, she's a wife, she's a business owner. And this woman has more drive and hustle than most people I've met in my life. But stick around as we're gonna dive into the topic of the grind behind the beauty, what it actually has taken her to get where she is, and some of the amazing things she's learned along the way. I walked away from this recording was so many new strategies for my own life and things I want to change in my own business. So really hope that you enjoy this one as much as I do. So, after the show, listen for instructions on where to find a super fun giveaway. It might even include some of her art. Dawn Taylor  00:53Hey, hey, hey, welcome to The Taylor Talks. I am hanging out with, as you heard, the amazing and beautiful Giselle Denis, the world renowned artist. So conversation that Giselle and I've had over the years, is how easy it looks from the outside. And there's this whole girl boss mentality right now, this, like, it's just so simple and have alignment and flow, and it's just so beautiful and easy. And the hard conversation we want to dive into today is that's not realistic. That's not the reality of it. That's not actually how most businesses are built. So Giselle, let's dive into it. Tell us a little bit about yourself and how this all started for you. Giselle Denis  01:48That's a loaded question. So I've always been an artist, I grew up in an artist home, and just always, always painted. And I started selling my work when I was about 14 years old. I learned realism and I was doing portrait work. And that's how a lot of artists start out selling their work, is, you know, finding a niche. So for me, it was portraits and pencil, and my work doesn't look anything like that now, but I learned really young that people wanted to buy something that I made with my own hands. So that was very appealing to me, I loved to do it anyway, and if people were gonna hire me and give me money to do something that I love with my hands, like, that's amazing. So I just kind of kept going with it. I went to college and studied music for four years. And when I finished college a year later, I got married. And then it was like, okay, now what? What do I want to do? And I just kept going with my art, but as most people know, art sales can be few and far between. And I didn't know how to, like, make a respectable adult income, like, what do I do? So I thought, I'm going to have my own little house cleaning company for a year. I'll work my own hours and the rest of the time I get to control when I work, when I can paint, and I thought I'll do that for one year. And it turned into five years. I know. Dawn Taylor  03:09You mean you weren't a millionaire in the first year? Giselle Denis  03:13I worked really, really hard. I I didn't hate cleaning, always. But near the end there I was getting a little frustrated with oh my gosh, it's been this long, like, when am I going to stop doing all this? So I thought how about I try - because I was selling my work in between in every single, like, any kind of art show I could find I would do. And I just really exhausted myself. But I had more energy back when I was younger. So I thought okay, if I was making $1200 bucks a month house cleaning, and I thought to myself if I could make $1,200 in art sales every month this summer, I'll quit cleaning just for the summer and see how it goes. And then I never looked back. I did it. I was able to do it. And then more, my clients all said, like, you're not gonna come back cleaning. And they believed in me, like, I hoped they were right. And I didn't look back. As far as income and sales go, it's been a roller coaster. It's not consistent. It's been more up and down most of the time. But people don't realize when they first, like - yeah, like you say before, like, live here - people think, like, oh my god, she got famous overnight or something. And obviously, most of the time it doesn't look that way. I've been married 19 years. And that's when I house cleaned for the first five years. So I quit cleaning and have been doing art full time for 14 years. And so it's been 14 years. It's not, like, it hasn't been five years, it hasn't been 3, it's been 14. And I bet you probably about year 10 is when I was like, okay, I'm making a respectable adult income now. That's how long it took. Dawn Taylor  04:55Okay so let's just pause on that for a sec. Like for anybody listening thing to this: 10 years. Like it took 10 years to get to the point where you were like, I'm an adult making a real income. And those were 10 years of just, like, okay, so only because I've been on the inside a little bit of your business, like, I've sat in your studio and wired paintings and filled out spreadsheets and, like, I've done some of those parts. So I've seen the crazy. I've driven with you to Calgary to hang art in lobbies of skyscrapers, like, I've done a little bit more behind the scenes than probably the majority of people have with you, right, but, like, this isn't you just sitting at home listening to music and being like, well I'm painting and this is all lovely. Like, talk about like the work that actually went into it. Like, what kind of hours have you put into this? What has the drive been? Like the drive but also like the grunt, like, the you know what I'm talking about. Like the hustle that's actually had to go into this to get where you were at the 10 year mark. Giselle Denis  06:07I think that thing that's kept me going is the chutzpah, the passion and love I have for what I'm doing. I love to paint, I can't see myself doing anything else ever with my life. I don't know, I just finished this huge, my biggest commission of my entire career, they were pieces that I made for the Sherwood Park Community Hospital. And they were 8 feet by 16 feet, the first painting, and the second painting was 8 by 6 feet. And my husband, when he watched me make them the whole time - not as a creep, but as like he was videotaping me, taking pictures, and documenting the whole thing - and he said I can't believe how much will it takes to do these. And I've never actually heard anyone put it into words like that before. I'm like, yeah, like, of course. But from someone watching me do the work and him setting, like it's exhausting just setting me up for the work. But he can see and feel how much will it took. So I think I have a strong will in me that... like, don't get me wrong, before I ever made any money, like literally $7,000 a year for a long, long, long time, I was happy. I was doing what I loved. I mean, my husband had a regular income. So he was able to, like, carry me through all those years of making very little. I always hoped that I would be where I am now. But I never would have imagined even as much as how well I've done now. But it has been a struggle. I hadn't had any help. It's funny when you want an art gallery to represent you, to help your career at the beginning when you need the help, my experience has been really, like, they're just not helpful at all. Nobody wants you when you're nobody. And then some people start wanting you when you're somebody but when you're somebody finally you don't really need them. Like do I need a gallery in my own city right now? I don't need a gallery in my own city. I could really love to, it'd be cool. I'm not even really actively looking right now for a gallery in another city. Like, I kind of cycle through my sort of seasons of okay, I'm going to try and submit to these other galleries to get some representation in a different city. But I found the most success for me has been going to that city for whatever purpose and you build your audience one person at a bloody time. One person at a time. So I just got back from Saskatoon painting in a charity function. I was just invited to come and do this piece for this room, there's probably 800 people in the room. So lots of good advertisement. I have a goal to raise a million dollars for charity. So that was another thing to, like, we just come up with clever ways to get my name out there, my art out there. I've done as best as we could with what is follows the alignment, with what aligns with our values and our desires, and what we want to do. Another thing that's really helped me is I like to talk about, have you heard my boat analogy? Dawn Taylor  09:03I'm... maybe, but please share it with us again. Giselle Denis  09:05Picture your life, or I would picture my life as a boat, an aircraft carrier, like the hugest boat that you can imagine on the ocean. And an aircraft carrier has helicopters and a landing pad for helicopters, planes. It's got places for the army, it's just this monstrosity of a city of a boat. Okay? And it moves very slow. And it has everything on it, everything and everyone on it. And as I've kind of moved along the ocean of my career, I was like, oh, this is not working for... I'm sinking and I'm drowning. So how can I pare it down and take everyone's... take the people off the boat that I don't need, the things off the boat that I don't need, the expectations, the, you know, things that people put on your boat. They didn't even know how it got there. How did that even get there? It's weighing me down. So I I've taken off all, as much as I can, as much as I've, now I have a tiny speedboat with the things that I decided this is what I want to do. These are the things that I've decided that I have intentionally put there to help me go along my way, and I go much further, much faster. I'm happier, I'm not weighed down by other people, other things, just the world around me, it's been really hard to do that. And you let people down. People are, you know, for the most part... I mean, I don't usually hear about stuff like that, but I would expect that, you know, you disappoint people. Because it's just, like, I don't have the capacity to have the world on my boat. So I just want this small little boat and go, and people who really love me will understand and know that, like, it's just I have to, otherwise I'll die. I hope that makes sense. I hope I'm saying it right. Dawn Taylor  10:53No, that's a beautiful analogy. Giselle Denis  10:56Yeah, it's really helped. You know, when you kind of decide, and it's hard to know at the start. Like, most people probably do start off their lives and their careers that way, like, I want to do everything. And another example would be like, why doesn't she paint...? Why does she just paint flowers? And I'm like, well, if you really dig into it, it's not the only thing I paint. But, like, why don't you only paint this, like this just flowers or just nature? And I was like, well, okay, here's the how I say that: if you paint everything, you'll be remembered for nothing. So if your business, for example, if you, you know, if you're a coach, cool, but what specifically do you coach? The more you, like, narrow it down, you have a niche... the best advice I've ever been given, I went down to San Francisco and I heard about this like an art critic kind of guy, but he's really interesting. And so I went down and hired him for a couple hours just to sit down and talk with him about like, you know, if I'm missing anything, I really would love to know what your opinion is on my life and my career, what I'm doing. And as far as moving forward, like, do you have any tips for me? And he basically said, you know what, I think you're doing the right, you're on the right track. I paid him to tell me that you're doing a great job. He said, the best advice he said was, find something that no one else is doing and be the best at it. Yeah. Cool. I like that. So, you know, for me, you know, one thing is don't compare. I do my hardest. And it's a daily decision to not compare myself to other artists, other business people, women, anything. Dawn Taylor  12:34Women are the worst at that. Giselle Denis  12:37I just, like, okay, don't make apologies for who you are. And what does be who you are really mean? And so I've been able to, like... I mean, social media is great and stuff for work but, like, I try not to use it too much for my entertainment. And it's just, like, helped me go what, you know, live painting, for example, it's not for everybody. And so many artists say oh my god, I want to be like you, I just want to paint like you, I want to be, I want to paint, I want to be live painter just like you, teach me how, teach me teach me teach me... and I'm like, oh my God, frikkin people. I'm like, you don't want to be like me. Why would you want to be like me? Dawn Taylor  13:15Okay, say that again, you don't want to be like me. Giselle Denis  13:19You don't want to be like me, why do you want to be like me? I am me. I already exist. There doesn't need to be another Giselle. There doesn't need to be another Dawn. There needs to be... you have a responsibility as a human being, as a artist, entrepreneur, businesswoman, whatever it is you do, you have a responsibility on this earth to pull out the best parts of who you are and be that person. Because the world needs you to be you. The world doesn't need you to be another me, like, you know. Who's your favorite artist, like who, like, people always ask me that. Like, who is your role model, who's your, all this stuff, and that stuff's cool... but, like, I don't intentionally try and paint like anyone else. Like, I love Monet. I love Van Gogh, of course. But I don't sit there and, like, try and copy their paintings and paint like them. It's just like, take a scene that you love and paint it what that looks like to you. And however those brushstrokes come out onto your canvas, let that be your voice. Let that come out how it comes out, and don't try and, like, when there's little things that, like, the nuances of how you hold your, seriously, people want me to, like, literally.... They want, like, I'm gonna do it exactly like that. And I've seen like really disturbing copies of my work that they're trying to sell, and I'm just, like, guys, like, stop. Just, you know, do... it looks bad. Dawn Taylor  14:45So let's dive into that for a sec, though. When people are trying so hard to copy, and lots of people have said over the years, right? Like no, no, they're copying you, like, take it as a form of flattery. I often look at it as like, it's actually genuinely sad to me. Like, where have we lost ourselves? Where have we, as a society, gotten to this point where we can't be original anymore? Right? And the failure or the fear of all of these things behind it, where it's like, no, no. Like, what is it? What is it about that, do you think? And being that insecure? Giselle Denis  15:20Insecurity. They don't want to put the time in to figure out, you know. Dawn Taylor  15:25Oh, there we go. Giselle Denis  15:26Right? They want the easy way, like, well, I just want to, like, you know, I want to have 11,000 followers on Instagram, and I want to be famous and paint in all these places, and do, like, then go ahead. Like, go figure out how you're going to do that. Go figure that out. But, like, one of the ways, for example, I decided not to do that I've been ridiculed for is I don't coach other artists. I have no desire to do that. Here's a funny story. I had a lady who was insistent that I see her for coffee. We're going to meet for two hours, she's going to give me $150, she's going to e-transfer me right away. And we're going to talk, and I'm going to coach her for two hours. And we're going to be on this date. I was like, okay, there's no way that's happening. And oh, did you just tell me what I'm worth? Dawn Taylor  16:15That is so funny. Giselle Denis  16:17What? You can keep your $150. No, we're not meeting. I don't do this. Because it's one of the things that I took off my boat ,like, no, no. I've never coached artists. I can talk to you about things. But as far as like, I get an email almost a day about from an artist who wants me to basically coach them and tell them how I've done everything. Tell me everything. Tell me how you've done, how did you get to this, and I want to know everything so I can do it, I want to be just like you, I want to do all the things just like you. And, like, I don't know, flattery to me isn't appealing at all. I'm just like, I don't know, like I just say, you know, I would have to spend months with you to figure out what your end goals are. I bet you don't even know the answers to those questions. There's a whole shit ton of work you got to do before I could even sit down and talk with you. Could I do all that? Yeah, I could quit my job and coach. I could quit my job and teach. I could do all these things. And I'm like, but I don't want to do that. And I decided that's not what I'm doing. This is what I'm doing. And that's what I'm going to continue doing. Sometimes, like, you know, little things come up. And I leave space for those things. Because I'm not so like, no, this is exactly how my day goes, or this is exactly how my year is gonna go. I don't plan out all the... exactly. I want to leave space open for... if I fill everything up with all this unnecessary things that I let people say that I should do, it's such a frickin waste of time. And to do what, for what, to accomplish what? Exactly. So I can hold your hands? I can hold your hand through this whole thing? And I'm not, you know, I'm being maybe a little bit too... this is just years of people trying to, like, suck from me. And I'm just, like, if I feel like you want something from me,  I don't, I have no time for you. Dawn Taylor  18:08So, no, but like, here's the thing. This is literally what this whole podcast is about, is the conversations that nobody's having. Right? And the conversations that people are scared of, or there is shame attached to them, or frustrations. Like, this is literally what this conversation is about. And not even just like the rant about it, but, like, no no no. It takes hard work. Like it has taken you so much work and so much effort. Like, I remember one point in your career, and I hope it's okay to say this, you were like, I don't remember the last time I had a day off. It's been literally, like, months since I had a day off. Because all week, right? It was like painting and painting and emails and building frames and canvases and supplies and, like, all of the million things that had to happen. While being a wife and a mom and you have an acreage, you have to take care of all the things. But then it was also, like, what Wednesday you'd start prepping for the weekend of like going to an art fair, or going to a street thing, or you're at a craft fair, you're at a thing right? You hang it all up and then sit there for 12 hours and tear it all down, like, I did a weekend for you. Right? It's exhausting and the energy of the people, and the energy of all that stuff. Like okay, a) people appreciate these damn makers out there that are actually putting their time and energy and effort into this. And yes, it might cost more than an Ikea painting. It should. Like it should cost more because their blood sweat and tears have gone into it, right? But with that-- Giselle Denis  19:41And then just because you're an artist, people think they can barter with you. Because you're an artist on the street or an artist at a market or an artist in the studio, they think they can barter with you. And you're, like, a lot of artists let that - that's a whole other story - but a lot of artists let people do that. And that's really the word, you let them. You have to decide, like, you put a value on that piece of work, and you have all your reasons for putting that value on there, but if you aren't confident in that price you put on there, you will get pushed around. Like all the time. And people will, it'll get around, word will get around, like, oh, no, she'll have a studio sale in like three months. Every year she does big studio sale, so don't buy from her till then. And you'll get 70% off at her blowout sale. Or yeah, you know if you talk to her you can get a deal. Like, it's like... and I never have studio sales. I don't have sales. My prices only go up every year. Right? That's it. And my paintings aren't, and I see other artists work out there who've been doing a lot way less longer than me... way less long. Maybe there's a better way to say that? Who have not been doing it near as long as me, and you're charging like twice as much as me, and I was like, oh, okay, okay, cool. Like, fine. Like, if you can get those prices, cool. Go for it. I've chosen to have my work priced at a certain level. And then every year it goes up. And... anyway, that's a whole other story. Can I just say too how much I hate 'Boss Babe? I hate that. I hate girl boss, girl boss, boss babe. And I have my reasons why I hate all that. Dawn Taylor  21:20It is my biggest pet peeve. Like, I hate it too. Giselle Denis  21:24I had to do, like, interview questions for this other thing I'm answering questions for. And one of the questions asked was, what has it mean or what does it mean for you being a woman in business, or I forget exactly how it was worded. I gave all my answers and at the end - oh, and not to mention, like, my entire life being sexually harassed. And I just stopped. I'm like, it's okay to say, but you asked me for the truth. And it's the truth, man. If you're a woman on the planet, you've been harassed probably most of your life. Like, probably most women can say that. And that's one thing people don't talk about either. And so the one reason I hate about boss babe and being, you know, I don't like, I mean, I'm a woman, I'm she/her, like, you asked my pronouns, and people are asking your pronouns now, this is so new, the world we live in. But I just, like, I don't know. For me, I'm like, I don't know, being a human... this is what it's like being a human. Why do I have to, like, always say, like... why do we always have to say, like, because I'm a woman. It's tough because I'm a woman. Like, yeah, no shit, like, of course, of course. But I don't like to be like... it's like when people say to me, like, oh, that's such a masterpiece of a painting. And I'm like, no, it's not. It's not a masterpiece. I made a great painting. It's kind of just, I'm going off on a little bit of a rabbit trail. But like, the masterpiece thing. It's not a masterpiece. If everything I make is a masterpiece, then nothing's special. Nothing. I would say 1 out of 100 paintings stand out. And, you know, so I don't know... Dawn Taylor  23:07I like to think I own at least one or two of those. I like to think that I do. I own a few your masterpieces, I will say that. Giselle Denis  23:16The thing is because you connected to certain pieces. You can't, nobody can connect to every single one. Right? It's not possible. And, like, for you, like when you coach someone, there's usually probably a little sliver in there where the person's like, oh.... like they have their amazing hour with you, or time with you, but then there's usually some snippets that are like little gold nuggets. And that's why people go to you. Because only Dawn can present those gold nuggets. Because you're you. And you found your niche, you found, you know, what makes you connect to people and you are given these, like, moments of insight to their lives in those moments. And that's what they come for. And not everybody who needs coaching is gonna go to Dawn, because the ones that are supposed to come to you will come to you. And it just works that way, like the universe brings them to you. Dawn Taylor  24:09So for all of these people... and thank you, I love my niche market. Like, I love working with people with, like, business and trauma, and the combination of those, or just one or the other. Like, I love my niche market. So, for someone coming to you - because it's gonna happen, right - people will always come to you and be like, teach me, tell me what to do. Right? Do you have a recommendation on how people can approach you? And what they can say that actually matters. Giselle Denis  24:43Do I have a recommendation? Dawn Taylor  24:45Yeah, like if someone comes to you, and they're like... no, no, no. But for someone to come up to you and just be, like, hey, I really respect you and your work. I followed your journey. Like, it's really cool to watch. Like, is that something you want to hear versus, like, wow, must be nice to have such amazing, like so many followers, or do you know what I mean by that? Giselle Denis  25:10I'm not sure what you're getting at exactly. Dawn Taylor  25:12Sorry. Like when should people not say when they approach you? And what should people say? Giselle Denis  25:17No, I'm not like that. I'm not... because I really do think that everyone, 99% of people that say something to me aren't trying to be dicks. They're not. They're trying. They're not. They don't, even though they might say something that I'm like, what the hell? I would say most of the time, even if they said something weird, I'm like, I try to give them the benefit of the doubt. There's a few in there that have been like, oh, that was fully aggressive. So no, I mean, honestly, it's all it's a whole. It's just, it tells the story. And I try and have very few things surprise me anymore. So if someone says something that triggers me, I just like learn to deal in the moment. And just go okay, at this point, like, I have an answer pretty much for everything. It's very rare now. And is there anything that someone shouldn't say to me? No, bring anything, anyone can say anything they want. And I can just laugh inside now at this point, even, like, it's very rare, like people won't be like, oh, I hate that. Like, they'll be normal people and turn the corner and talk behind my back, like most people would, right? Like, if someone's gonna say something stupid or mean, like, oh, my kid could do that. Or you start painting these, Tiffany, you could paint all of these and sell them. Like, people say all kinds of things, I just laugh and I'm like, whatever. So no, like, it's kind of funny. It tells the story. And I go home and write about it in my journal that eventually I'll turn into a book, you know, of stories of my life or something. I'm not exactly sure... that I've kind of.... I have all these snippets and I'm going to work with an editor one day. I'm not thinking it's anytime soon. I have too many projects on the side that I'm slowly sort of... Dawn Taylor  25:51You're like, my boat is not big enough for this right now. Giselle Denis  27:08Yeah, exactly. I don't like it when people lie to me. That's probably my biggest trigger. Like if someone, I met someone recently painting live, and the entire time he came... the story was, we talked, he's like, that would look really nice in my house. And like, oh, cool. You know, what do you, where do you live? And he's telling me he's got like, eight houses. And then I'm like, oh, cool, where are your eight houses? And they were all over the world. And I'm like, well, what do you do? And he's like, well, I'm, I thought he said loyal. I'm loyal. I'm like, do you think I'm hitting on you right now? I'm not hitting on you. Like, no, he said no, I'm royal. Oh, like, royalty? I didn't even know what he was saying. He's like, yes, I'm royal. I'm like, oh, oh, well, I don't even know what to say next. I'm like, what does that mean exactly? He's like, I'm from the royal family, the queen is my ninth cousin or some story. Anyway, we talked for a really long time. I found out later after, I sat down and googled him after he left, because this girl I was talking to said like, I call bullshit. Like that's not true. Anyway, we googled him and found out he goes around lying and saying, making up these stories. Anyway I'm off on a tangent. I don't like when people lie to me. Don't lie to me. Dawn Taylor  28:28There's no need. Giselle Denis  28:31I don't have time for lies. I don't know why lying makes me crazy. Dawn Taylor  28:36Oh, that's too funny. Reading is huge for you. And over the years, you have had some amazing books that have like, influenced your life in everything from sales to just life in general. Would you have a couple you could recommend to people? Giselle Denis  28:56Oh shoot. I'm really bad at remembering the titles. One of the first books that really got me into reading business books - it's so ridiculous - it's from the 80s and it's like, 'Zig Ziglar's The Art of the Sale' or something like that. It's a really stupid title. Yeah, I saw it at a secondhand store and I bought it, I was really intrigued. But I learned a lot, I was able to, like, you know, sift through the crazy talk and actually find some really good like gold nuggets that I kind of learned. And after that I really started like digging into, like, how to sell your art, like, how do you do this? And I was already really good at talking to people. But I've read books on, like, tons of of books on art sales, tons of books on running a business, conversations, how to have conversations with people, but really like... shoot, I can't, I have to go grab it. I don't remember any titles in the moment. Dawn Taylor  29:47If you'd be willing to send me, if you'd be really willing to send me some, I'll just include them in the show notes for people that are curious about maybe, like, what your top five are. Giselle Denis  29:54Okay, yeah, I'll do that. I'll send those. Dawn Taylor  29:56What are you reading right now? Giselle Denis  29:58Right now I'm reading, it's called 'Smart Women Finish Rich'. And it's really interesting because a lot of different stories that women would share about, like, their husbands passed away, and they had zero clue about their finances. And if you don't know where things are, like, it's really scary how you can just become like, almost destitute, because you didn't, like, you didn't organize stuff, you didn't know where things were, and you didn't know whose name things were signed under. And anyways, so it's really important for, I just want to think about that more and go, okay, like, where are our investments and what, you know, I know what some of the things but not answers to all of it. I don't want to be caught, like, not knowing information that was easy to know about, as far as like planning for the future. Because my husband, Neil quit his job last March, to work with me full time. So things we have to think about, like, for planning for the future, like, it looks a lot different now when he works for me and doesn't have a typical, what do you you call it, benefits and stuff with a normal job? I wish I could remember some book titles. I'm sorry. Dawn Taylor  30:59No, no, that's okay. I'll get you to send them to me. And I'll put it in the show notes so that people can... we'll put some links and stuff so that people can access them. And they know what some of your favorites are. So knowing now, looking back at all of this, is there anything that you would do completely different? Giselle Denis  31:19I would believe in myself earlier. Having confidence is something that, you know, people would.... my teachers and stuff would tell me, like, yeah, I can see you have the thing. It's just, like, believing that you can do it. But I guess that just I don't know, some people, it just takes years to believe that you can do it. Would I do anything different? Probably. I mean, would I go and take a music program at the school I went to at this, like, would I make that same choice now? No. I mean, but I don't regret it. At the same time I don't regret any decision I've made. I don't know. Not really. I mean, I love where I am now. And I loved where I was then. And all the choices I made, good or bad, wrong or right, got me to where I am now. And I don't want to say a whole lot of regrets. Just like... yeah, I maybe would have bought an acreage sooner, but we couldn't. I couldn't have done that back then. Dawn Taylor  32:16But even that, from the outside the acreage, I mean, it's stunning, your property, your house, they're beautiful. But you also bought it when it was like a run down condemned, like.... Giselle Denis  32:33Almost, yeah. Dawn Taylor  32:35Literally, like it was brutal. And you guys put blood, sweat and tears to renovate it and create what you have. Giselle Denis  32:44Yeah, I am glad we bought it when we did. People thought we were crazy because the place did need a ton of work. Would I do all that over again? Yeah, probably. I'm glad I don't have to. Like at this point I think this is our forever home. We're now building an extension to our house, to my home, that's a studio space that's attached to the house. And it's a bit of a disaster right now, and it's hard because, like, when you're living in a mess, you're like, oh my gosh, but I've never... at no point was I ever like I wish I never did this. I don't think any, you know, as far as career choices and stuff, I don't think, no. One of the things I wrote down to talk about today was saying no, saying no to things. That's more about the boat thing. About, like, what I chose to have on my boat. But one of the things - back to the confidence thing - okay, one thing, not one, but this is an example of one of the things I would have done differently. I was painting - I think I told you the story - but I was getting ready to paint at a charity function. The lady in charge turned out to be, like, just unstable is the polite word. Crazy. You know, when I tell this story, and I won't say names or anything, but at the event, just as I'm about to get started to paint, and she like ripped up, like at me, and starts yelling at me. She just turned crazy. I'm like, what is, why is this lady yelling at me? I don't, like what is happening right now? And I didn't know how to deal with it at the time. I went to my car and cried. And I hadn't finished setting up, and I called Neil, and I'm like, I don't know what to do, this is what just happened. But she literally yelled at me and then hit me. She, oh, like she hit me, and I was standing there like in shock. And I didn't know what to do. So I put my things down. And her team came down the stairs to kind of welcome me, oh Giselle, and I told them what just happened as I'm like having a panic attack. And they were like, they didn't even know what to do either. They were like, oh my god, oh my god. And I'm, like, I need a minute. And I left and went to my car, called Neil, told him what happened. He's like, leave. This is what you do now, you leave. You do not stay there. And then I talked myself into staying. I'm like, I committed to being here today, I said I would be here, I'm here, I'm just going to do it. And that was, I don't know, six, seven years ago. Would I do it the same way now? Oh, hell no. I'm not, I'm not like diva person. But now I would say, I am leaving, goodbye. And I would, no explanation, I would pack up my things and leave, no matter what, because I will not be abused. That was, and now to this day, when I see that person in a public space or at a function, you've been with me at these functions, at... there was one. And I have panic attacks. And I'm working through how to, I've seen her now at a number of different functions since. I bet you she doesn't even remember what she did. I try and tell myself that, but it's just like, God, I don't, I don't know how to... sorry, let's have a session with Dawn. Dawn Taylor  32:45I'm like, call me. Actually, you should call me. I have some, I'll give you some strategies on that. Giselle Denis  36:02I just like need a way out. Like, you know, there's a few people in this world that if I was to bump into them, I need a way to, to deal with this situation. I don't know, I just don't know, I don't know what to do. That's like, I don't want to be wrong. But I also don't feel like I need to be their friend. So it's just I have nothing to say to you and then walk away. Like having that sort of, to how do you deal with conflict or difficult situations that, yeah, it's very like, does anyone else, like, listening, have you had those scenarios where you're like, you see this person who literally major triggers

Why you would want to listen to this episode…For our episode today, we will be talking to Tess Jewell-Larsen. Tess is a woman who was raised with the philosophy of getting as many things done as quickly as possible and “sleeping when you’re dead”. While this is a mentality that would undoubtedly help with productivity, it can also lead to burnout. She shares with us how she ended up on the path to mindfulness and is here to spread the idea that rest does not make us weak, but it’s what we need to make ourselves even stronger. Who this forIn our meeting-filled and workload-centered world, it can be hard to set aside time for ourselves. However, as this episode proves, we can all use some rest in our lives whether it’s ten minutes to destress or even a whole day of sleeping in. With that in mind, this episode is for those of us who deserve to unplug from the fast-paced hustle and bustle of life, which may very well be all of us. About Dawn TaylorDawn Taylor is the professional ass-kicker, hope giver, life strategist, trauma specialist, and all-around badass. Dawn's journey into helping others heal began when she took her personal recovery from the trauma she experienced in her life into her own hands. While at times unconventional, Dawn’s strategic methods have helped hundreds heal from traumas such as issues related to infidelity,  overcoming addiction,  working through PTSD from sexual, emotional, and physical abuse, as well as helping cult survivors thrive. Dawn’s work has empowered entrepreneurs, stay-at-home moms, and CEOs alike to be superheroes in their own lives. Having completed thousands of hours of training from many professional programs, including the Robbins Madanes Training Institute, Dawn’s blunt honesty will challenge your thinking, broaden your awareness, and help you achieve the outstanding results you are worthy of.Connect with Dawn here at The Taylor Way: Consultation Call | Website | Facebook | Instagram | LinkedInGet to know Dawn on a deeper level through her book! Order HereP.S. I Made It, is a powerful story that grabs you through its lack of pretension and honesty. Every page reveals another layer of curious wonder at both Dawn’s life and the power of hope that moves within each of us. Dawn’s hope is that you use this book as a resource to deal with your struggles. Share it with someone who needs it. We all want to feel like someone understands what it’s like to suffer through something and – come out the other side. She describes her life as “horrifically beautiful and beautifully horrific. Guest BioTess Jewell-Larsen empowers women professionals, entrepreneurs and juggling-it-all’ers to go from exhausted and overwhelmed to balanced and thriving. Tess is a certified mindfulness coach, somatic healer and a Yoga Therapist in training. Tess emphasizes breath support, mindful movement, stress management, nervous system resiliency, mindset and lifestyle shifts, and taking small steps that build up, so that her clients feel more joyful, balanced, and optimistic, and thrive no matter what obstacles come their way. Tess is also the co-host of the podcast The Happy Edit, a podcast that dives into what it means to be happy and how to build a foundation for happiness through different lenses.Guest Social LinksEmail - tess@tessjewellarsen.comWebsite - www.tytoniyoga.comInstagram - https://www.instagram.com/tessjewelllarsen/Facebook - https://www.facebook.com/tessjewelllarsencoachingLinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/tessjewelllarsen/The Happy Edit - https://www.tytoniyoga.com/pages/thehappyeditpodcastThanks for listening!Thanks so much for listening to our podcast! If you enjoyed this episode and think that others could benefit from listening, please share it using the social media buttons on this page. Do you have some feedback or questions about this episode? Leave a comment in the section below!Follow the podcastIf you want to receive new podcast episodes automatically, you can follow us on Apple Podcasts or in your favourite podcast app.Please leave us an Apple Podcasts reviewRatings and reviews from our listeners are extremely valuable to us and greatly appreciated. They help our podcast rank higher on Apple Podcasts, which exposes our show to more awesome listeners like you. If you have a minute, please leave an honest review.Views Expressed, Legal and Medical DisclaimerThis podcast (including any/all site pages, blog posts, blog comments, forums, videos, audio recordings, etc.) is not intended to replace the services of a physician, nor does it constitute a doctor-patient relationship. Information is provided for informational purposes only and is not a substitute for professional medical advice. You should not use the information on this podcast for diagnosing or treating a medical or health condition. If you have or suspect you have an urgent medical problem, promptly contact your professional healthcare provider. Any application of the recommendations in this podcast/website is at the listener/reader's discretion. The views and opinions expressed are those of guests and do not necessarily reflect the opinion or policy of Dawn Taylor, The Taylor Way and or its Associates. The before mentioned are not liable for any direct or indirect claim or loss. TRANSCRIPTDawn TaylorI am your host, Dawn Taylor. And today I get to talk to an incredible woman. Her name is Tess. And what is our topic? Rest doesn't make you lazy. It does not mean you're a lazy person. So before we get started, I really want to tell you a bit about her so that you can be as excited as I am. Tess is a rock star. She's a powerhouse. She's also nuts because she's probably at a weird time of day in talking to me, but that's okay. She is a certified mindfulness coach, a somatic healer, a yoga therapist in training. She helps people heal. She also has her own podcast, The Happy Edits. It really dives into what it means to be happy and how to build a foundation for happiness through a different lens. And honestly, it all comes down to what most of us as business owners or humans or parents have done is we've all burned out. So let's dive into this topic today. Welcome to the show, Tess.Tess Jewell-LarsenUh, well, thank you so much for that intro, and thank you for having me. I'm really excited to be here. Dawn Taylor You're welcome. So when you and I first met, so for people that are listening to the podcast, one of the things I do is if I don't know the guests in advance, they've just ask me on the show, we hop on a quick like 15 20 minute zoom call to like meet, connect and figure out what we would talk about, really like kind of what our topic is going to be, but also make sure that I'm okay with it for my listeners to be really honest, right? Like to make sure it's a good fit. And we had such an incredible conversation talking about burnout, talking about what rest means, and this bullshit idea that rest means you're lazy. And that there's like this weird guilt and shame attached to it. And, I mean, I experienced this every day when people find out I nap all the time or that I, you know, book Lego building into my schedule or things like that. They're like, why? Like it's so interesting. The judgment is almost like this weird condemnation slash jealousy that comes with that. And so I was so excited about this topic today. Like this is so needed. So let's start with your story. Like where did this all start? Where did this come from? How did you grow up with your beliefs around this? I'm going to let you take it from here. Tess Jewell-LarsenSo, uh, yeah, let's talk about the growing up part. Um, that's where it started. So I grew up with the phrase “you can sleep when you're dead.” Um, that was like the motto that my dad literally said all the time. And he got it from his dad, you know? So it's. It's been in the family for a while. Yeah, it's just very much this idea. You know, you've you've just if you stop, if you sleep, then you're lazy and you're not doing everything that you can be doing. Um, and not, you know, one side, it's not necessarily bad because, you know, it's good that you have that push and you're doing things with your life, but on the other side, it can lead to, um, not listening, what your needs actually are. And, um, in my own case, burning out, um, I was very much a product of my upbringing and just trying to do too much and also doing things not necessarily that lit me up that, you know, gave me satisfaction. I was just doing them because I kind of what I thought I had to do and, you know, have that job and provide for my family and, you know, do all those things. And, through doing that, I kind of started to disconnect from what I really wanted from things. Yeah, like I said before, like lit me up and helped me, like, cultivate my creativity. And so I was really cutting back on those things because I was doing something that I didn't enjoy. And burnout can happen if you do something that you enjoy as well. But this is just my experience. And, um, the more I was cutting out from myself, the more I stopped listening to what I needed more. I stopped listening to hey, like, it's okay to take a break, it's okay to take a nap, for example. Um, and I really stopped listening to, you know, what I wanted out of life, and I just kept doing because I thought, you know, this is what I'm supposed to be doing. And in over the course of several years. It was like progressively getting worse. And not that I noticed it really. At the time, I wasn't really paying attention to it. I was like, oh yeah, I'm having another panic attack. What's that? Um, or like, why am I becoming so negative? Or why aren't I, why am I not doing anything that, like, is creative anymore? Um, you know, those things I didn't notice it, right? And I didn't notice. I eventually started noticing. I think one of the first things I started noticing was like, the breakdown of my relationships. Like my marriage was not awesome. I wasn't reaching out to my friends as much. I wasn't connecting with them as much. And as I mentioned, I was having panic attacks and they were becoming more frequent. And I was like, this is weird, but not really putting the two and two together. Like, what is that equal? Um, and then in 2020, thank you. Covid, with all the other extra  additions going on globally, and in my own personal life because of, you know, effects of Covid, um, I ended up majorly injuring myself, to the point I couldn't move. Dawn TaylorOh my goodness. Tess Jewell-LarsenAnd I mean, and when I did move, I was in so much pain. I'd like to say it was exactly that point that it was like. Yes. This is where I need to stop. It didn't, you know. Dawn TaylorNo it wasn't. There's always like another level of burnout. Yeah. The bottom. Tess Jewell-LarsenIt really got to the point where I just like, I mean, it was just, I wasn't in a good place. And I realized I was trying to do all these things, and I wasn't stopping because, you know, I was thinking, well, I have to do this for my family because my husband wasn't well. And, you know, there's lots of other things going on. And I was like, you know what? Um, I'm just going to keep pushing. I'm going to keep pushing. And then it just got to the point that I couldn't anymore, um, physically, mentally, emotionally. Um, and that is when I realized that I had to make drastic changes in my life. Um, so I sat down with my husband, and we came to the conclusion that in that moment, the best thing for me to do is to quit my job, which was terrifying. Um, and I know that's not available for everyone. In my case, I'm very fortunate to have that opportunity to be able to do that. Um, but I needed to have that complete wake up call and that complete change to be able to start like a new foundation. Um, and that doesn't have to happen for everyone. I'm putting this out there like it was, that was what I decided to do. And that was my situation. Um, but it's really been a journey since then of like, okay, how do I put myself back together? So physically, how do I get my body back? Um, how do I get to the point where I'm not, like in tears every time I try to move, um, where I'm not gasping for breath every time I, you know, shift. Um, and, you know, our bodies are very much connected to our mental state. So obviously, you know, part of that like that, you know, pain management had to come from my, you know, supporting myself mentally as well. And so learning how to do that as well. Um, and it's been, you know, I studied a lot, I trained a lot with some amazing people from all over the world, which was a benefit of Covid, that was then available to do that online with, with some pretty amazing teachers. And, um, yeah. So, you know, that led me to, to studying mindfulness and somatic healing and yoga therapy. Um, and it's been a fun journey because. So I quit my day job, um, started putting myself back together. I started teaching yoga. In that like I was sharing my journey, you know, like, oh, these are things I'm learning. This is how, you know, I'm supporting myself. Um, and the students coming to my classes, they were like, oh, that's really interesting. And then they started bringing that into their lives and like, hey, Tess, like that really works. That's amazing. Um, and then they would share it with their friends. And so it was this really fun ripple effect to watch, right. Like it was, like, something that I was learning that I was able to share with others. And they were then able to share it. And I was watching this growth of this little community around me, um, that was really healing themselves through the pandemic, through, you know, the different craziness that was happening in their own personal lives. Um, and I realized that that's what I wanted to do, that that was like my passion was to help be that supportive guide and resource and really to help people heal, as you mentioned at the beginning. Dawn TaylorWhich is so cool. So let's backtrack a little bit because I really want to dive into, like, burnout what burnout means, how to even recognize it. So, just on like the Mayo Clinic. I was doing some research on this because I have burned out so many times, and one of the things I have to tell people is like, no, you need to start watching for this, and you need to have like a red flag system for yourself on burnout because we can. I don't burn out because I'm miserable in my life. I burnout because I'm so passionate about what I do, and I'm so excited that I just want to do all the things right, and then it causes me harm, and I burn out and I crash, and it becomes this whole issue, right? And it's like, why are you burnt out again? How did you get there? And for me, honestly, it often comes, like end of the year or beginning of the year with shifts and changes and just not having capacity anymore. Right. But I was at the Mayo Clinic and it was just like burnout. Like, even just some questions, right? And it's like, are you becoming, especially around work? Are you becoming critical and cynical at work? Do you have to drag yourself to work and have trouble getting started, or are you becoming very irritable? Um, do you lack the energy to be consistently productive? And I mean, this is even at home. Right? Are your sleep habits changing or are you having unexplained headaches, stomach or bowel problems that are physical ailments? Are you finding it hard to concentrate? Are you feeling disillusioned with your life? Are you using food, drugs or alcohol to feel better or to not feel? And so many of these I see every single day in clients. We do live in the same world, right? We live in this world of people that we have a million shoulds. What we should be doing and how we should show up. And, you know, the old Pinterest wife mentality or like the perfect husband or the perfect dad, or the perfect mom or the perfect friend and the perfect everything. And I was talking to a friend yesterday and he's like, you know what I love about you? And I said, what's that? And he goes, I love that we haven't talked in weeks, and I never question that. You're still my friend. I never question that. He's like, but you're also the very first person that always is like, no. I don't want to. He's like you were so fast to, like, not go to the event. Say no to the party. Like you're just like, no, I don't want to. I don't have the capacity for that. And I said, but part of that is like when you burn out. It is so much faster to go there again. It's like you've created the pathway. And so what? The second time it's like a way easier path to follow, and the third time it gets easier, and the fourth time it gets even easier and it becomes a really slippery slope. Tess Jewell-LarsenYep. Right now it does. It does. Dawn TaylorHow all of a sudden you end up there again. And I know for myself, um, probably my worst burnout I've ever had, I was doing what I love. There was no question about it. But it was, you know, I always worked Monday to Saturday. I always had clients six days a week. And for years, like, I'm talking like seven years of my business. I worked at six days a week, which now I'm like, that's insane. Of course I needed more time off doing what I do, right? But then it was like a client and I was due to an emergency situation. Like I'm talking like lawyers and cops involved kind of thing, right? It was an emergency situation and the only time they could escape from their situation they were in was on Sunday. That was the only day they could get out of it to come and work with me. So of course I'm going to say yes, come, come on, a Sunday doesn't mean I stopped working Saturday. I decided on Sunday and it's right. Tess Jewell-LarsenYeah, exactly. Dawn TaylorRight. And then it became one client and then a second one, and then a third one, and then a fourth one. And at one point I had gone 12 weeks without a day off. And I actually fully lost my ability to talk. I definitely had migraines. I couldn't form coherent sentences, I couldn't talk. It was about a week before Christmas. I had booked my schedule all through Christmas with no time off, and my husband is the one who actually sat me down and was like, I'm contacting your clients. We're canceling everything for the next two weeks because you can't actually do this anymore. And I was like, yeah, how did I get here? Like, how did that happen? And. I think that's the piece that people miss is that often we got there with the best of intentions.Tess Jewell-LarsenI think so, I think so, and like you'd say, like, you know, it can happen when you're passionate about something. It can happen when you're not passionate about something. You can get there in different ways. And it's about taking that time to be aware so that you can see what those red flags are. And if you don't know, like in my case, like I had no idea, like I didn't put the two and two together. Like this is a red flag. That's right. I mean, maybe I should have, but like panic attacks all the time. Not really a, you know, in a happy flag, right? But at the same time, it didn't, like I'd struggled when I was younger, I had struggled with anxiety and I just thought, oh, well, you know, it's just, you know, rearing up again. Dawn TaylorIsn't that wild? Tess Jewell-LarsenAnd it's, you know, but it's it's that our bodies are created in a way that we, you know, we have these experiences and we're designed to be able to, you know, kind of keep memory of that, whether it's a conscious or a subconscious memory. And so when something similar comes back, like everybody goes, oh, well, this is how I respond to it, right? Like this is how I get away. This is how I protect myself. And it's doing that because it loves you. And so it's like part of stepping on a burnout is rewiring that response so we don't go back into it. So it's not that slippery slope. And it's not an easy thing to do. It takes time. And I think so often when we go through burnout, we don't fully continue that process. So like we get to a point, we're like, oh, I'm fine. And then we go back to what we were doing before and we don't continue that work of checking in, allowing ourselves those active rest moments. You know, those moments where we just tune in to us and just be, right. And those moments are incredibly important because we have, you know, if you look at it like the nervous system. You have the sympathetic nervous system, which is designed there to be an acute response to get you out of a situation. And we tend to stay in that in a much longer, more sort of persistent response, which is not a good thing. And that's where that, you know, the inflammation happens. That's where the poor digestion happens. That's where the, you know, the headaches come from the, you know, maybe you have other things going on physiologically with your body, increased pain awareness, you know, things like that. Right. So it's when we're able to shift, we're able to take those moments to allow the body to down regulate into that parasympathetic response, that calm, rest, digest response, that the body goes, oh, okay, I don't have to continually stay in this hyper, you know, vigilant response. I can rest. And that is super important. That's important for our long term. So both are good. And I think, you know we have this sort of thing in our society a lot. We're like oh you know, fight flight freeze. It's not a good thing to have. No no no. It's a very good thing. Like your body loves you. That's what it's protecting you.Dawn TaylorIt’s literally a protection mechanism.Tess Jewell-LarsenYeah. And so it's like rewiring that. So we're not constantly staying there like when we're noticing, hey, I'm in that mode okay. Noticing it with awareness. Compassion. Like don't beat yourself up for being there. It's fine. You're there okay, but what can I do now to come back into a more restful state, meeting yourself at that point and taking those small steps to lead back into a more balanced, homeostasis state. Dawn TaylorOh, the conversations you and I could have on this. This is literally what I talk to clients about all the time. Right? And we do. We fight. I was saying to a client yesterday, I was like, you know, we're so busy fighting our protection mechanisms because we're so mad at them and they're making life uncomfortable or they, you know, they're not appropriate in this new moment in our lives. And I always say to people, I'm like, you can't out will, you can't willpower. You can't stubborn your way past your protection mechanism because they're literally they're designed to protect you and they're your safety mechanism in your body. And this client was like, okay, but explain. I said, it's the same reason why you can't hold your breath to commit suicide, like, or to have death by suicide, you literally can't like your body will force you to breathe. And he's like, okay, that's a very blunt way of putting it. And I said, but think about that for a second. These little protection mechanisms, you could have been in a situation where you had to duck and cover all the time, or you had to, I often see when someone was raised by an alcoholic, is they become very, very good at reading emotions and smells and sounds and tastes and everything. Right? Like they can tell by the way their parent drives into the driveway. They can tell by the sound of how they open a door. They've attached a meaning to everything, which is now this incredible protection mechanism as a child. Well that's amazing. If you stop and think about it, it's phenomenal that our bodies at the age of like three, four, five, six, like they can develop this incredible skill. The problem is that now, when you're safe and you're not living there anymore and you're outside of that, you're still reading into all of those things because this is your new way of thinking and living and breathing and sleeping like, and you do that. But we get so busy judging it that we can't sit back and be like, hey, what if I just got really curious about this? And I really looked at this in a different way, because you have to really close the loop on that. You have to close that loop of, as you know, of like, no, we have to go back there and heal that. So that you can actually move forward without needing that safety, without needing that protection mechanism again. So with your, I'm not even diving into your work because for anyone listening, you know, this is like a hard-no sales podcast, right? This is not what this is about. But also, like Tessa's info is in the notes, if you want to talk to her, in the show notes. But for you, your big signs of burnout, as you said, like you very much physically felt it. When you went back and looked at it. Were there red flags that you could see over the course of an extended period of time where it was like, oh, this is the moment I stopped doing my hair, or this is the moment that I started eating out more often, or this is the moment that I came home and didn't want to do the laundry at the end of the day, because I really just wanted to sit and veg on the couch, but my intentions behind it weren't the same. Can you look back now and see a bunch of those red flag moments? Because I think it's one thing to talk to people about, like when you hit burnout, it's a whole other to gift them like, hey, here's some red flags you could be looking at in your own world, and you could start seeing to be like, oh, maybe I'm on this pathway to burnout and I don't actually want to be. Tess Jewell-LarsenYeah, yeah. No. Definitely no. I definitely look back and go, you know, okay, this is a red flag there. And I guess I wasn't one of those was being negative. I am not a negative person. Naturally I'm a very happy go lucky. Like let's like, you know, um, let's look at the positive side of things in general, right? Yeah. Um, and, and I would shock myself how negative I was getting and how, like my response was to go in for the kill rather than to just kind of process and, think about, okay, what's going on here and then move forward. Um, and I really started noticing that first with my relationship with my husband, because shockingly, that didn't go very well. You know, there are lots of other things going on at the time. So, you know, I didn't fully process like what it was. But yeah, and looking back, I can say, yeah, that was a huge red flag. Um, another was like I used to, I used to write all the time, like, I loved writing and then all of a sudden I didn't. I didn't like, I didn't write in a notebook. I didn't write anything. Like I didn't want anything to do with writing. And I was like, that's weird. Like, and I started thinking about, like, I, I don't write at all anymore. Why is that? Oh, well. And then moved on. Right. But like looking back, I go, that's another huge red flag. Like I didn't, I didn't want to write. I didn't want to be creative, I didn't I, I sing a lot to myself. I didn't sing to myself at all for a really long time. And it makes me happy. So like, why wouldn't I do it? But I didn't. And actually, my husband even mentioned, like, you never sing while you're cooking anymore. What's up with that? And I was like, I don't know. Maybe I just don't want to anymore. Yeah. But, you know, so like it was, it was things like that that I was really like looking back, I go, yeah, that was a huge red flag. That was another huge red flag. Um, and, and as I mentioned, panic attacks like the fact that I was increasingly having panic attacks and I was like, the kitchen was my place to have them. I'm not really sure why, but, um, I don't know, maybe I felt supported in that area. I don't know.Dawn TaylorI was gonna say you were safe in there.Tess Jewell-LarsenI felt safe so I could release. I would just be curled up sobbing, not being able to breathe, just not seeing anything, you know, just really like everything, which is black and just, like, on the kitchen floor and in, like, cuddled between cabinets, yeah, really dark areas. And it was just, you know. That should have been like the biggest red flag. And yeah, and it wasn't like, you know, like looking back there. Yeah, there's so many things. But it's so like if you're listening to this and you're going, okay, like one of those things. Yeah, I connect with that like take a moment to process that. Right. Like, you know, maybe it means something else, but also maybe it means that you're, you know, you need to start listening. Maybe you're feeling, you know, you are disconnected from self. Do you notice if you're hungry? Like that's something that's important as well. Like for that introspection. Like do you notice you're hungry. Do you notice your thirsty right. Do you, do you notice those other bodily-like functions that we should be, you know, really obvious to like? Do you notice you have to pee or are you, like, bursting to pee by the time you finally, like, realize it? You know, like this is important too, because when we start disconnecting from those, you know, those mental things, we're also disconnecting from physical. And so when we start to bring that awareness back little by little, little by little, right. It's not like all of a sudden everything turns on and it shouldn't. We need to stay within our window of tolerance. Um, because then it gets messy. But like, you know, it's, it's little by little becoming aware of these things. You know, it's noticing  these patterns that we're holding in our body. And then once we start noticing them, that's when we're able to say, oh, okay. What is something that I can do to pause that? What's something that I can do to start to shift it slightly to then have, you know, that navigation go a different way?Dawn TaylorYou know what? I often do an exercise with clients where, and I do it for myself because my burnout there were very, I have very, very specific things that are very tiny things. But there are my red flags. They are my biggest red flags. And one of the things that I do is I tell people around me about these red flags. I'd be like, hey, if you do this, ask how I'm doing. If you see me doing this action or not doing this thing, I need you to say, how are you doing? And yeah, one of the things and this could be an exercise even for someone, this thing is like, I have a list of like, from the minute I wake up, like the time I wake up all the way through, do I go to sleep? I write like when life is amazing and I'm thriving. What does it look like? What time am I getting up in the morning? Am I wearing clothes right? Am I showing up to my work meetings in pajama bottoms with a nice top? Or am I actually like putting on pants? Right? Pants is a big one. Like am I putting on pants is a weird one for me, right? Am I wearing mascara? Am I putting, doing my hair and makeup? Am I remembering to shower at least every other day? Am I right? What am I eating for breakfast? Am I drinking coffee? What am I listening to? What am I reading? What am I watching like, am I eating? What am I? My regular routines of dietary stuff that I know makes me feel amazing. And I go through this giant list of stuff. Right. And then I compare it. There's three columns to column one is that, column three is like when things are at their worst, what am I doing? Yeah, right. So if it says it's best, I'm waking up at 630 or 7. When it's at its worst, I'm getting out of bed at 830 or 9. Right. Okay. Well, there's a big gap in between those two because we don't go from like, amazing to burnout overnight. There are a thousand tiny steps that got us there. And on that journey there are so many red flags. Right. And so what I do for myself is then go, okay, so now I'm listening to like, music every morning here. I'm listening to like, a crime podcast. Okay, here I am, you know, doing my hair and makeup every day and stuff. Fancy. If you've ever met me, you know that I'm very, very minimal. I'm like mascara and I fill in my eyebrows and that's about it, right? But, like, if I'm not even doing that. Right, like what's going on? And it's interesting because I started to pay attention. And hilariously, some of my big ones are the first one ever to go for me is my kitchen. My kitchen becomes messy and at the end of the day, I don't clean it because I am not obsessive. Because that's not the word for it. I'm very habitual. Like I make sure every single night the kitchen's clean in the morning. Like everyone in my house knows this. Like, the first person to make coffee empties the dishwasher while they're making coffee, because then it just keeps this, like pattern going and our kitchen never becomes a disaster. So if you ever come into my house and my kitchen's a mess. I'm feeling overwhelmed. Something's going on and it's a one degree shift. It's a one degree shift off my normal pattern. But weirdly, some of my other ones and some of my biggest are, if I stop wearing earrings or if I stop wearing mascara. Those are two of the ones that go really, really fast. And then it goes like, this. Sleeping in in the morning and then it starts to spiral from there. But they're like this simple, simple thing. And I've had friends like middle of the year where we're like on a zoom call and they're like, get close to the camera. Are you wearing mascara? Because they can tell I'm not. And they're like, what's going on? Because I have allowed and this is a vulnerability piece like I've allowed other people into my life that go, no, you've requested us to call you on this. If we see this action or this behavior. Yeah, like I had a friend come over. It was about a year ago, and she's like, okay, kitchen, earrings and mascara. We need to talk because she's like, what is going on with you? Right? And it was just like, I was really struggling for a few days. I was dealing with some health stuff and I was just having a really rough week. But for me, if I don't catch those fast enough, I can spiral really hard, really fast. And so I would challenge people to do that. And that middle column is your red flag. So that's like, okay, I didn't wear mascara for a day, or it's like, no, it's a weekend and I don't feel like it. That's fine. But on Monday morning, did I put it on again? Yeah. And that's your awareness column. That's your awareness column of like when I hit this wake up time, if I look at my alarms on my phone and I'm at this time consistently, I need to just be aware of this and see what's going on. Right. And that's often where I recommend someone starts when they're feeling like they're like, how did I end up here again? And I'm like, well, because you don't know what your flags are to get like, to stop you. Right? And figuring that out. So then with that. Rest does not mean we're lazy. Let's jump back to that topic of like, okay, now you've burnt out, now you have figured this out. Good luck slowing down because the people around you are going to judge you. And really stupid meaning to things that should not have meaning. So talk to me about that topic because you were. You would recommend that as the title is like rest does not mean you're lazy.Tess Jewell-LarsenYeah. So, I mean, I think this leads into that, right. Like I think so often, those points where we have those red flags is because we're not taking the time for yourself that we need. And, you know, that can show up in different ways, like you're saying, maybe putting on makeup in the morning, you know, maybe you don't for several days in a row. Why? Is it because it's a weekend and it's fine. It's not that big of a deal? Or is it just because you can't do it because you just don't have the energy for it, right? So it's like that. It's, in my opinion, it's always about coming back to that awareness and saying, okay, so how am I feeling right now? And rest can look different. It doesn't have to always look the same. And I think this is a really important thing. I think when people hear rest you're like, oh, well, that means that I need to like, take a nap or I need to just do nothing. Or maybe, maybe that's exactly what you need, but maybe your rest is not paying attention to your work and you go for a walk. Maybe your rest is meeting up with a friend because you haven't met up with a friend for a really long time. So it's about really checking in with yourself and asking, what do I need? What am I not giving back to myself right now? Um, and, and meeting yourself where you are. Because I think if, you know, if we're, like, really high up here and we're, like, all over the place going straight for that, like that low key moment is probably going to be really jarring to your system. So taking that time to meet your system, yes, where it is, and take those small steps to come back into that more balanced state, that more restful state. And so it is really about that, you know, and I think that your exercise is great. Like having those, those things, you know, you have those three columns in your list. And I think I would I would personally add to that like a because, you know, maybe more of my background is, you know, very physical with yoga and, and that but like somatic healing but like, how am I feeling like when I am doing these things, how am I feeling in the body? Like, do I feel open and spacious? Do I stand straight? Do I, you know, in the good column, right. Like, you know what? What is happening in my body? Do I have good bowel movements? You know, you know, like all looking at all of these different things, right? How am I feeling? And then it's, you know, okay, when I'm in these, like in the, the lower states and I'm like in your example, you know, uh, you your kitchen is really dirty. Okay. When I walk into that kitchen, how am I feeling? Like how am I holding my body? Am I like turning in, am I, you know, feeling like my abdomen is crunching? Do I feel tight in my chest? You know, like noticing these feelings in the body? Okay. Where can I make that shift? How can I start bringing that spaciousness back into my body? Maybe cleaning the kitchen will be a benefit. So maybe that is my rest moment. Maybe my rest is like taking that time to clean part of the kitchen. Maybe not even the whole thing. Maybe just washing whatever is in the sink and not on the counter. Right? Dawn TaylorOr, you know, putting 15 minutes at a timer. Tess Jewell-LarsenYeah. Set a timer. Exactly, exactly. And it's, it's about these little tiny things that we can do for ourselves. And I think so often, you know, when we go, especially when we're in

Why you would want to listen to this episode…Today on Taylor Way Talks, we get to speak to Paul Young. While the world knows him as the author of the groundbreaking best-seller The Shack, today he gets to talk to us as an MK - missionary kid - born from having a third culture, as well as a man of God who tries his best to make sense of the world. Paul believes that the love of God can come even from one’s darkest moments and in the most thorough processes of deconstruction and today, he gamely shares his revelations with all of us.Who this forPaul by his own admission has lived an imperfect life. Yet, he’s persevered and risen above it thanks to the belief in a perfect God. For anyone who’s ever questioned their faith and the purpose of God in their lives, Paul’s story is an inspirational look and one that could help us to be more introspective. Furthermore, for anyone interested in what it’s like growing up as a missionary kid and being exposed to various cultures, this episode gives us a glimpse at that very unique life. About Dawn TaylorDawn Taylor is the professional ass-kicker, hope giver, life strategist, trauma specialist, and all-around badass. Dawn's journey into helping others heal began when she took her personal recovery from the trauma she experienced in her life into her own hands. While at times unconventional, Dawn’s strategic methods have helped hundreds heal from traumas such as issues related to infidelity,  overcoming addiction,  working through PTSD from sexual, emotional, and physical abuse, as well as helping cult survivors thrive. Dawn’s work has empowered entrepreneurs, stay-at-home moms, and CEOs alike to be superheroes in their own lives. Having completed thousands of hours of training from many professional programs, including the Robbins Madanes Training Institute, Dawn’s blunt honesty will challenge your thinking, broaden your awareness, and help you achieve the outstanding results you are worthy of.Connect with Dawn here at The Taylor Way: Consultation Call | Website | Facebook | Instagram | LinkedInGet to know Dawn on a deeper level through her book! Order HereP.S. I Made It, is a powerful story that grabs you through its lack of pretension and honesty. Every page reveals another layer of curious wonder at both Dawn’s life and the power of hope that moves within each of us. Dawn’s hope is that you use this book as a resource to deal with your struggles. Share it with someone who needs it. We all want to feel like someone understands what it’s like to suffer through something and – come out the other side. She describes her life as “horrifically beautiful and beautifully horrific. Guest BioPaul Young, author of The Shack, Cross Roads, Eve and other books, was born a Canadian and raised among a stone-age tribe with his missionary parents in the highlands of what was Netherlands New Guinea (now West Papua).  He suffered great loss as a child and young adult, and now enjoys the “wastefulness of grace” with his growing family in the Pacific Northwest of the USA.Guest Social LinksWebsite - https://wmpaulyoung.comFacebook - https://facebook.com/wmpaulyoungThe Shattered Soul - https://wmpaulyoung.com/the-shattered-soul/Thanks for listening!Thanks so much for listening to our podcast! If you enjoyed this episode and think that others could benefit from listening, please share it using the social media buttons on this page. Do you have some feedback or questions about this episode? Leave a comment in the section below!Follow the podcastIf you want to receive new podcast episodes automatically, you can follow us on Apple Podcasts or in your favourite podcast app.Please leave us an Apple Podcasts reviewRatings and reviews from our listeners are extremely valuable to us and greatly appreciated. They help our podcast rank higher on Apple Podcasts, which exposes our show to more awesome listeners like you. If you have a minute, please leave an honest review.Views Expressed, Legal and Medical DisclaimerThis podcast (including any/all site pages, blog posts, blog comments, forums, videos, audio recordings, etc.) is not intended to replace the services of a physician, nor does it constitute a doctor-patient relationship. Information is provided for informational purposes only and is not a substitute for professional medical advice. You should not use the information on this podcast for diagnosing or treating a medical or health condition. If you have or suspect you have an urgent medical problem, promptly contact your professional healthcare provider. Any application of the recommendations in this podcast/website is at the listener/reader's discretion. The views and opinions expressed are those of guests and do not necessarily reflect the opinion or policy of Dawn Taylor, The Taylor Way and or its Associates. The before mentioned are not liable for any direct or indirect claim or loss. TranscriptDawn TaylorI am your host, Dawn, and today I get the privilege to talk to the amazing Paul Young. You guys would know him as the guy that wrote The Shack. If you haven't seen the movie or read the book, you desperately need to, but today we're talking about a different section of his life. Today we're going to talk about being an MK and how to keep your faith. So, MK for laymen’s folks that were not raised in a church is a missionary kid, Paul YoungOr it can be called a third culture kid because it’s a different culture. Yeah. And third culture means that you belong to a group that is different from your passport culture and the culture that you grew up in. And so you don't fit in either anymore. And so, you know, when I'm, when I meet a missionary kid, the third culture kid, we instantly have a bond. Instantly, I was, uh, I was with, uh, Bill and Gloria Gaither in the Midwest, where they live at one point. And there was a gathering of about, I don't know, 150 people. And somebody asked me this, during the Q&A, um, as because it was in the US, Canada would be a Q and R, and because we Canadians don't have all the answers.Dawn TaylorI love that you say that you're a Canadian. We literally went to the same high school. Paul Young So they said. You know. What was it like growing up as a missionary kid and why do you have this, this attachment to other missionary kids? And I said, oh, let me explain. I said, we've got probably 40 missionary kids in this room, and I'm going to ask one question and count to three. And wherever they're seated, they're going to answer it. And I said, okay, ready? So here's the question. What's the hardest question anybody ever asks you? And all over the room, you know, without exception, they called out. “Where are you from?” Because we don't know how to answer that question. Are you asking me where I currently live? Are you asking me where I grew up? Are you asking me what's on my passport? Are you asking me? You know all of that. Where are you from?Dawn Taylor So very different. So let's backtrack a little bit. So you were born in Canada? Paul YoungYep, a year old. Dawn Taylor Raised among a Stone Age tribe by your missionary parents in the highlands of former New Guinea.Paul YoungNow West Papua. Dawn TaylorOkay, so then had this crazy great loss as a child, young adult. And now, I do want to ask you about the statement you now enjoy the wastefulness of grace with your family in the Pacific Northwest. I think it's just a sort of Portland, if I'm guessing. Right. Paul YoungJust north of Portland. Yeah. Dawn TaylorOkay. And he's the author of Lies We Believe About God, the New York Times bestsellers The Shack, Crossroads, and Eve. You've got kids and grandkids and a marriage, and I've heard you speak on the sexual abuse that you dealt with as a child and a lot of different things, but today we wanted to go at it from a bit of a different standpoint of when you're hurt within your beliefs., right? So when the hurt comes from within your faith and your culture. How do you maintain that? How do you come back to it and what does that look like? So, the first time you and I met was at a Little Warriors Luncheon. And then I was like, hey, I want to have a zoom call with you. Can we have coffee? And you actually said yes. Like he actually said yes. And I'm like, yeah, why not? But then when we connected, we realized that we actually went to the same high school and knew this same kind of neck of the woods area and some people, which was a really fun connection that we both grew up in Terrace. But let's talk, tell me about your story. From the little boy and what that looked like.Paul Young So. A year old. We go to the Highlands of New Guinea. New Guinea is a very unusual place. It has over 800 unrelated language groups. Wow. So, like, they're still looking for the Tower of Babel there somewhere, and, uh, but 800 unrelated, like the tribe north of us. Danal was a was an, um, ours was a non tonal dialect, like English, but theirs was a tonal dialect, like Chinese. And, uh, right next to each other with no common languages, no trade languages, nothing separation by swamps or mountains or rivers or whatever. And so, you know, everything our, our tribe was in the valley, uh, the Barling Valley called the Cannibal Valley. That was the nickname because they practiced ritualistic cannibalism. And so it was a big tribe, 40 to 60,000 members over about 100mi². And, um. One of the biggest, New Guinea as a whole, is the second largest island in the world. And, uh, and so. People don't know it. It goes from right off the equator up to glaciers. And people don't know that there's all this diversity, um, in the middle of that country. Yeah, middle of that island. So Dani it was my first language. My first real language. It was the first language that I, I could speak fluently. It was my dreaming language. So I felt like a Dani because my parents were very much doing the work of God. And, uh, so I was basically raised Dani and, uh, which I, I thought was great in so many respects. And, um, even when I was in their, in their villages and I heard conversations about whether they were going to kill my parents or not, I never felt any fear. And, um, I, I wasn't, I wasn't white anyway. I mean, really, because you get color blind about yourself in that sense. And it wasn't until boarding school when I was sent to boarding school at six, did the actual realization that I was white happen, and that was a shock. But, you know, when I think about the sexual abuse, it began in the tribal culture, and I don't know, I don't know whether it was just endemic to the culture or whether I was targeted or not. I'm just not sure about that. But when I was sent at six to boarding school, I was targeted, there's no question about it. And, uh, and boarding school was not a safe place, but I was, I had already disassociated from my parents. I didn't have any sense of their parental relationship with me. And, uh, I'm the oldest of four. Dawn TaylorSo let's talk about that for a second, because a lot of people don't understand that as a missionary kid, the majority of missionary kids are not raised in the village, in the culture, in the town, with their parents. The majority of them are sent away to boarding school. What does that mean? Paul YoungWell, in our world, as a missionary, you raised your own support, but it was a requirement that you had to send your kids to a boarding school. That means at six, they put you in an airplane and they send you to the coast. In our case and it was a school from first to eighth grade. And, you're by yourself, you're just a school full of kids. And your dorm parents or your those who ran the school, things like that. And it's kind of crazy, but. Usually the dorm parents and all those. The ones who are over the school weren't those who weren't very good missionaries. And but there was no sense. And even when my parents the year before we left became dorm parents, there was no connection. I mean, at that point, they were the parents of, what, 30, 40 kids? And so there's no sense that you're connected to them in any other way than everybody else. Um, but going to, you know, being pulled from your world, your tribe, your color into a place and dropped into a world that you don't even know how to make sense of. And think about it. Six years old. It's a baby. And now they've got to figure out how to survive. They've got to figure out how to deal with the abuse that takes place. Because you got to find a way to survive. You know, and when the big boys would come and molest the little boys. At six. That was the only sense of belonging you knew. So boarding school was dangerous. There was, you know, f a girl wet her bed, she was forced to wear a diaper and sit in a highchair. You know, for meals. And she could be in seventh grade or eighth grade and, uh, you know, there was one of the kids that was quite rebellious and in their estimation, and he spent probably most of his elementary school in lockup. But there was a day where he was forced to lay on the concrete slab we had, and all the kids were forced to kick him as hard as we could. To communicate what a piece of garbage he was. Dawn TaylorYou know.like you're sent there for, like, your parents are there to do such a beautiful thing. Like they're genuinely there to do something beautiful. Yeah, but that had to hand you over to that. Paul YoungAnd so my parents went with the best of intentions. My mother's a nurse, and she knocked a disease right out of the Central Valley. You know, they had a disease called yaws, which is like leprosy on steroids. But it had no resistance to penicillin, and it was a horrible disease, a horrible disease. If you ever saw pictures of it, you just go like, that's like the worst thing you've ever seen. And, she knocked it out the, um, and then she became the one they'd come to if they had, you know, arrows stuck in them, you know, because their warfare was bows and arrows. It was a Stone Age culture. So they had no metal in it at all. And so that's one of the reasons they didn't kill my parents because my dad had brought him a whole bunch of steel axes, which were much better than the stone ads that they used. Andvso they decided just to rip off as many steel axes as they could rather than kill us. But again, I didn't ever feel in danger except from the witches. They were a little scary, but they were all old women and couldn't run very fast. Yeah. And, uh, but, um, you know, so there's, there's all these layers of trauma that was going on and the sense of abandonment. You know, I have a memory. And it was probably just before I went to boarding school. Where my dad, my mom guilted my dad into letting me go on a trek with him into the jungle. And he was mad about that. And as soon as we got out of sight of the compound, he just took off. He just took off and I couldn't catch up. And all I remember is running and running as hard as I could. And I don't know if I ever caught him. I don't know, I don't have a memory of ever catching up, but, you know, there's just things like that and the trauma of having to leave the culture itself to go to a place you didn't know or understand. That's six. Yeah. I mean, who would send their kids away at six? You know, I've got my kids, but I got grandchildren now, a whole bunch of them. And one of my daughters, one of our daughters, is pregnant with grandchild number 16. And. When you look at a six year olds. Like they've got no capacity. They don't understand anything. And, to basically be abandoned to that world. You know, it's a crushing thing. And I've talked to, you know, MKs all from different parts of the world, and they experience the same sorts of things. And a lot of them are really struggling to integrate into any part of the world, part of it, but part of the beauty of MKs. And let me say this. As they carry a gift of being able to cross cultural divides. They see things from outside the box of a particular culture that they find themselves in, because they're not in it. And so they have a capacity to see the things which don't make any sense for, um, where people just accept them without challenging the assumptions. And so as, as MKs or third culture kids. Become healthy. They become gifts to the world. And you'd be absolutely amazed at who in the world is helping solve problems that have a background as third culture kids. But you gotta get through the crap, you know, you have to find a way to come to wholeness. And that's a long and arduous journey for many of us. Dawn TaylorIt is, and for so many reasons. Like, it's one thing to deal with sexual abuse when you're in a healthy home environment. Paul Young Yeah. Which I wasn't.Dawn TaylorWhich you weren't. So you dealt with abuse in the village, then you get sent away at six. You're now dealing with this rejection and abandonment. Paul YoungI already had a very furious dad who wasn't a healthy man. Dawn TaylorSo now you add that on to it. Right now, you go to this environment that's not only abusing you, but they're teaching you like I can't even imagine.  And what that psychologically would do to you? Paul YoungI have this when people ask me, is there anything you don't like to eat? I always say sauerkraut out of spite, you know? And people go like sauerkraut out of spite. And if they want to hear the story, I tell them about the day that some nice-loving Dutch person sent 50 gallons of sauerkraut to the boarding school and when they arrived, the people who ran the school, the dorm, parents and stuff, they they knew that this was brand new to all of us. And so we had a meal and uh, they put a bunch of sauerkraut on our tables and on our plates. And the thing was, if you ate all the sauerkraut before, you know, if everybody ate the sauerkraut on their plates, then they would cancel school in the afternoon, and we all go to the bomb hole. It was a, World War II was fought in New Guinea a lot. And so there are these bomb holes, and the water from the mountains would come and fill them up, and they became swimming holes. And so, yeah, it was great. And I got caught throwing mine down the toilet. And so everybody in the school got to go swimming. And a woman sat there with a wooden spoon and all the leftover sauerkraut and hit me every time I would take a bite and swallow. I spent the afternoon that way. And I must have been seven by then. Probably seven. So I don't like sauerkraut out of spite. Dawn TaylorNo, I wouldn't either. So you lived there for how long? How many years did this abuse in all forms take? Paul YoungYeah, we came back when I was, um, right around ten years old, and we came back to Canada and, uh, Saskatoon in the middle of winter. Um, and, yeah, it was a culture shock. Went to a mall for the first time. And it was just like there's little doors. People went in and came out different, you know, the elevator, and we couldn't figure that one out. And there was an African American man that came through the mall, and we jumped him, four kids talking to him in Dani and wondering why he's not talking back because he's the closest thing to home we'd ever seen. And, um, so there was all this culture shock, and I moved around. We moved around a lot. My dad became an itinerant pastor at 13 schools before I graduated high school. And, uh, a lot of things were broken, porn addict by 12. And, uh, and because, you know, I had no capacity to trust a relationship. So porn is, you know, the imagination of a relationship without the risk of a real one. And, um, and so my cover skill, my survival skill was to tell a story like, which is another phrase for lying. I became a really good liar. I had already done that. My dad had beat that into me. And um, and you know, with so here's, here's what my history had done. Um, my relationship with my dad had communicated that I was a piece of shit. My sexual abuse communicated that I was a piece of shit. My abandonment communicated the same thing my experiences at boarding school communicating the same thing. We came back to Canada with no explanation and so we had to make stuff up. Moving around communicated the same thing. The self-hatred that came out of things like the porn addiction was just evidence of my theology that I grew up with that communicated the same thing. So I had a theology that says, you have, you're totally depraved. You know, it's like Luther said, we are snow covered dung, you know, piece of shit theology. And, um, so God looked at me the same way. And that was a huge hurdle. But you know, I look back at my childhood and for all the crap that was going on, there was such beauty. It would reach out. Not just in the land. But in the moments. And in the stories I was reading and in, you know, the tribe, the Dani tribe. The reason that I even became a follower of Jesus is because the tribe did. I was part of the tribe. And they did it at great cost and not because of the missionaries. Actually, the missionaries told them it wasn't a good idea because their immediate response was to build a burning pyre, a fire that was 100 yards long, three feet wide and three foot tall of all their weapons and all their spirit worshiping stuff. Not at any of the encouragement of any of the missionaries that were just there. Response of heart. And even at boarding school, you know, there were those moments we had this we have this, um, seed that had wings, you know, and you could fly them. It would just float, like, you know, it would just do this thing and float like this. And there were these huge butterflies, and there were these birds, you know, the bird of Paradise and other birds that were just absolutely magnificent and, you know, in the midst of the trauma, in the midst of the Indonesian soldiers getting drunk down in the valley and shooting up the little church that was on the property from below, and, uh, lots of snakes. They scared the crap out of me. But lots of them. And big ones and very poisonous ones. So in the midst of all this, there is, I didn't grow up blaming God for all the damage, I grew up loving Jesus. Even in spite of all this, and a little terrified of God the Father, because he looked just like my dad. But there was something beautiful about Jesus. And so that was the through thread. Jesus was the through thread. Even though He was pretty disappointed in me most of the time. There was still a real affection there and and a desperation because I couldn't, you know, turns out I'm pretty smart. And so, you know, in my teens, I was already reading, you know. Hermann Hesse and, uh, Pascal and Jacques and really heavy thinking sociologists and philosophers and stuff like that. And I couldn't find an alternative that really held water. But man, was I mad at the church. Really had a chip on my shoulder for a lot of good reasons. And somehow, and this has not been a common thing for missionary kids. Somehow I managed. Now I put Jesus on the fence a couple different times where it's like, you know, and I always ended up having to do things, you know, that being a part of something that was beautiful, a healing of somebody's heart that was that Jesus was absolutely essential part of that. And, and that would be a problem with my intellectual, you know, distance from God. It was just like, oh, crap. And, um, and, you know, I didn't know what else to do. So I left home as soon as I could. I was 16 and started working really hard, many jobs, and then went to Bible school because I didn't know what else to do. Dawn TaylorWhere were you looking at that point? Paul YoungSo Terraces, where I graduated. Right. And, uh, I worked at the radio. I started doing that when I was 16. Dawn TaylorLittle small town, northern British Columbia. Paul YoungWell, what's funny is I go in there and, uh, and they and I said, can I get a job? And they go, like, do you have any radio experience? And I go, no, but I've, I've been in the play at Caledonia. Yeah. And, and uh, I actually played and oh my gosh, they did Our Town, I was the town drunk and the evolutionary professor, I played both those roles and, uh, as. And I'm the preacher's kid in town, so. But well, we had a situation last night. Our rock n roll disc jockey who is really good left his mike open and he was dealing dope over the mic. So they said, we're going to train you. So I got 24 hours of training and I was on with nobody to oversee it or anything. I got to be the worst. Couple days, you know, radio broadcasts. I think it would be so hilarious to listen to those and but, you know, I worked hard, worked at many different things. Was a Hot Springs lifeguard at the same time, was doing construction work and, you know, really, really hard stuff, and then went to Bible School to see if I couldn't find something that made any sense. And I am so grateful. Inside of all my fury. Um, there were people that just showed up at the right moments. Most of them are women, frankly. Like Ruth Rambo, who is the president of the school's wife. And she'd slipped and I found out later, much later, that she did this to a lot of kids. She and her husband had been missionaries in the Philippines, but she would slip me a note or a book or a tape and, uh, and it would help. It would keep the movement going. But man, did I have a lot of deconstruction to do. And it took me a long time and part of the problem was you could intellectually come to a position. And you can see things, but it doesn't impact the integrity of your life. You can't, you know, coming to an intellectual position will not heal you and your world on the inside. It will not heal the broken places. And, uh, and I know, I know a lot of folks who are trying to make a change in terms of an intellectual, rational position, hoping that it will change. The things that are broken in them. Dawn TaylorThe trauma didn't happen to our brains. It happened to our bodies and the clients all the time. Right? Is when you're scared, you don't go, I am scared, your brain has this like I'm scared moment, okay? No. Your body physically feels the scared. Yeah, right. When something happens to us that happens there. So I was, I spent some time googling you, my friend,  and I was reading an article that you wrote for something. We'll take it in the show notes so you guys can read it. I also found it on your website called The Shattered Soul and it was really interesting. I love your words that you put to this. And. The Shack, which we'll get to later, is the book that you wrote that a lot of people, I think, took the wrong way. I know there was a lot of–Paul YoungThose are my people, right? No. Not quite. My people would be those who didn't actually read it and are still mad about it. Right? Dawn TaylorOh, it cracks me up. And I remember I remember hearing about that right. And hearing this whole thing. And you write about it and I'm just going to read this for the listener. You can read The Shack as a story, but my intent was always more than that, a parable laden with metaphor. It is a true story, but not real. The shack itself represents the house on the inside. The people help you build. It is the human heart, the uniquely crafted soul that can so easily be torn from its moorings and left to flounder in the waves of a storm tossed world. Some of us had good help building the house of the soul, but many of us did not. For us, this inside place became a shattered hovel, a barely habitable dwelling of which we were intensely ashamed and into which no one would ever be invited. Here we stored our addictions and hid our secrets. It was the house of shame and pain, held together by a webbing of lies, and protected by an ever growing array of survival skills and defensive mechanisms. And we believed that God hated this place even more than we did. Paul YoungYeah. Pretty much. Dawn TaylorAnd those words. I read those and I went, oh, isn't that so? The things that happen to us, the things that have been done to us. Our shame, our guilt, our hurt, our pain. All of these things. And yet we choose to either curl up and die or choose to fight. Paul YoungYeah. Yep. For a bunch of us. You know, suicide is a is a common companion because it's the last way to run away. And we've spent our whole life running away. Yeah. And, uh, but it's the last way to run away before you hit the bottom. For a lot of us, and for some folks, it's the way to stop the pain. Um, and, uh, but for me, it was the last way to run away. So there were more than a few times that I'd just about call it in. And, uh, and I'm grateful that I didn't. So, you know, part of the implicit question here is. What was the trigger that made me start to look honestly at the damage, you know, and it's different for different people. For me, it was Kim catching me in a three month affair with one of her best friends. And that just crashed my world. And it was, oh, the shame was so profound. But the question was even deeper. And that is you can either kill yourself or do you think there might be a way to change? That was the question. And, you know, I'm thankfully married to a very, very strong willed, emotionally healthy, furious woman. Dawn TaylorI love that you have furious in there. Paul YoungOh my gosh. You know, I look back, if it hadn't been for the intensity of Kim's fury, I probably wouldn't be here. In fact, I know I wouldn't be here. And, uh, it was the intensity of her fury constantly like it took her and I 11 years to heal. 11 years. Yeah. And in a world where it's so easy to give up. I don't know why I didn't because the first two years especially were absolute hell. Um, absolute hell. I remember driving with the family through from Banff down into the Valley of BC, and I had a half an hour of peace. That's the only peace I remember in the first two years. And, uh, and I was working hard. I pulled the yellow pages off the shelf and, and looked under counselors. Not because Kim required it, because I needed to find some help, and I knew I couldn't. I couldn't come to healing alone. Everything about my life was about isolation, everything. And I didn't realize that isolation is always disempowering. So, you know, I started with the A's and worked my way down. And I found Agape Youth and Family Services in their box over here. They said, we specialize in sexual abuse histories. And Kim didn't even know about the sexual abuse. I mean, she didn't know anything. In fact, when I had my first conversation after she caught me. And said, I'm at your office and I'm waiting. Oh, and I know I'm at your office and I know and I had to make the decision whether to kill myself or go and face her, which I couldn't actually face her. You know, literally, I, I couldn't get my eyes off the floor because you can't take the risk of that disgust in the person's eyes. Who you are in front of. Just won't shatter everything. So, she talked for four hours just laid into me and at the end of it that's when I said. If we're going to do this, I need to tell you every secret I have. Because secrets have been killing me my whole life. And naively she said, bring it on. Dawn TaylorAnd having no idea what she was walking into. How long have you guys been married?Paul YoungUm, 13, 14 years. Right in there. Because Matthew had just been born. He was like six months old. Dawn TaylorSo how many kids did you have at this point? Paul YoungMatthew was our sixth child.Dawn Taylor So you had six little kids at home? Paul YoungYeah, our oldest was. 13. Almost 14.Dawn Taylor So life's already hard just based on the fact that many kids and there's not much parenting going on. Paul YoungYeah, yeah. And, Kim's I mean, she comes from a huge family in which there is a high degree of health. You know, all the boys in their family knew how to raise children. They, you know, from the time they were little, they knew how to change diapers. They knew how to. Yeah. You know, all of that. She has five sisters and two brothers. And her and her five sisters are called the And may the force be with you. She was born in Minot, North Dakota. You know, there's no 50 shades and nothing. And I am very clear about this. And she would say there's lots of things that she did wrong during this period of time. And I would say I don't care. And I would say to anybody that Kim saved my life. She literally saved my life. I actually hit the bottom. When you're around somebody who hasn't hit the bottom, they will always point a finger elsewhere. They won't deal with their stuff completely. They will always find a way to make it somebody else's problem, in part, which may be true. But when you're going to face it when you get to the bottom, you don't care. You don't care who did what, it's about, is there a way to heal? Is there a way to change? And that when I went and met Scott, who was the therapist. The first question I asked him is, well, I told him all my situation and I said, can you help me? He's the first person I ever said those words to. Wow. And, you know, here I am, 38 years old and had never said to anybody, I'd worked off a persona. You know, I had such a shamed, drenched view of myself. You know, the affair wasn't about love because I didn't have that capacity. The affair was porn in the flesh is what it was. You know, it was my vacancy of soul that projected itself onto another image and somebody we knew very well and somebody whose kids who loved us. And so the damage was monumental. I still am in such deep gratitude and incredible regret. Not shame based regret, but grief based regret. And of the damage that I did and some of it's still not reconciled all these years later. And it's a timing thing and I'm not I'm not in charge of that. But one day, I said to Scott, can you help me? And he said, yep, I can, but it'll take a year and a half. I said, I'm in. He goes, he laughed at me. He goes, Paul, everybody says they're in when they're sitting in your chair after a couple of months, they'll feel smarter and more in control and they'll bail out right before the really hard stuff. And turned out I pulled this guy out of the Yellow Pages. He had graduated from Prairie Bible Institute. He had worked with a lot of churches in which sexual abuse was, you know, amongst the elders of the leadership and stuff like that, including I didn't find this out until later, including one that involved one of my uncles. And, so here I am, pulling a guy out of the Yellow Pages in Portland, Oregon. And it's a setup. It's totally a setup in the best possible way. And it took, I worked really, really hard. I almost killed myself about four months into it because it was getting too hard. And it got intercepted by a couple of people who did not know what was going on at that time in terms of my struggle and saved me and then went back to Scott. Nine months into this, he says, Paul, you're done. And I'm like. What? Like, you said, it was going to take a year and a half, and he goes. We have never seen anybody work this hard and stick to it. And it was life or death. Desperation for me. And Scott and I became friends, which is a great gift, too. So, you know, you look at all this, the intellectual stuff. I had to dismantle and rebuild a lot of that. But that's not what changed me. It's not what caused this massive shift in terms of my inside world. It was suffering and crushing and choices,  and hurt that I inflicted and pain that I needed to deal with. It was that side. And a lot of people hide their deconstruction for all their internal messes, right? So they think they can think their way into health. Not going to happen. Not going to happen. I got a great poem. Friend of mine is an Aussie and uh, David Tennyson. He says, if you must deconstruct. Take every part. Weigh, measure, keep and discard necessary things. Take all the time you need, but do not camp in the ruins. Discuss discoveries, but do not raise monuments to your brilliance. Brave as you may be instead. In time, build something new. Take the remains. Sorrows and pains. New friends you've gained. And build something new. Allowing the wise few to remind you. There is a time to break down. And a time to build up. It's called “If you must.” Dawn TaylorIt's beautiful. Paul YoungSo Kim and I are now married 44 years. We're the best we've ever been. And it just keeps getting better. But we lost some things because of my choices. And, uh, and it is smashed into my kids. And in terrible ways, and it took time for that to heal. But now I have grandkids, and one of the great unexpected beauties of having grandchildren is as you grow, your capacity to love increases. And I've been able to love them in a way that I didn't have the capacity to love my own kids. And they know it. But they watch me love their children in ways that I couldn't love them. And it's healing things that are still left to be healed in my own kids and in my relationship with them. Dawn TaylorYou know, what I love about that is we are so quick to walk away, so quick to, we will hold people at the point in our story where our story kind of stopped with them, right? Or where there was a really hard pivot point and we will hold them there. Yeah. And we forget that people keep growing and they keep changing and things adjust and shift. And we have to give people a chance.Paul Young Absolutely. And ourselves, you know. Dawn TaylorOh, and give ourselves so much grace. I often have described my life as beautiful, horrifically beautiful, and beautifully horrific.Paul YoungI think that's right. And yes, um, you know, part of this journey is destroying my really ugly view of God. And taking the risks that God was as at least as good as I wanted God to be, at least as good. And it turns out that that's just scratching the surface. You know, I have people, my people who write to me and they, they write and they say I'm terrified to take the risk that God is as good as you say and you're wrong. Right? So they've already built in a God who's untrustworthy and, you know. I think the human, deepest longings are little windows into the nature of God. And if those are our deepest longings to be truth tellers, to be kind, to be good, which I think we are all already are being made in the image and likeness of God. But if we can find those deepest longings. They are sometimes grime-covered, but they are windows into the nature of God that is at least as good as our longings. Dawn TaylorDid you ever struggle with. and I

Why you would want to listen to this episode…Our guest today, Doina Oncel, hasn't lived an easy life. Yet despite all the challenges she has faced from youth to adulthood, she has risen above it all to become a true inspiration. She shares the ups and downs that she’s experienced in life and how it’s helped her in the line of work she does. As she reveals her life story, we’re made aware that the concept of homelessness can affect just about anyone and that we should never stop being grateful for the blessings we receive. Most importantly, she and Dawn come from a place of compassion and encouragement, mutually agreeing that the hand we must always extend to the less fortunate is that of a helping hand. Who this forFor many of us, homelessness can be a tricky topic to talk about. It can be hard to associate or empathize with the homeless especially if we come from a place of financial security. For anyone who’s always sought out a perspective from the other side and yet was always too afraid to ask, or for anyone who’s always wanted to help out the homeless yet doesn’t know where to start - this episode is for you. About Dawn TaylorDawn Taylor is the professional ass-kicker, hope giver, life strategist, trauma specialist, and all-around badass. Dawn's journey into helping others heal began when she took her personal recovery from the trauma she experienced in her life into her own hands. While at times unconventional, Dawn’s strategic methods have helped hundreds heal from traumas such as issues related to infidelity,  overcoming addiction,  working through PTSD from sexual, emotional, and physical abuse, as well as helping cult survivors thrive. Dawn’s work has empowered entrepreneurs, stay-at-home moms, and CEOs alike to be superheroes in their own lives. Having completed thousands of hours of training from many professional programs, including the Robbins Madanes Training Institute, Dawn’s blunt honesty will challenge your thinking, broaden your awareness, and help you achieve the outstanding results you are worthy of.Connect with Dawn here at The Taylor Way: Consultation Call | Website | Facebook | Instagram | LinkedInGet to know Dawn on a deeper level through her book! Order HereP.S. I Made It, is a powerful story that grabs you through its lack of pretension and honesty. Every page reveals another layer of curious wonder at both Dawn’s life and the power of hope that moves within each of us. Dawn’s hope is that you use this book as a resource to deal with your struggles. Share it with someone who needs it. We all want to feel like someone understands what it’s like to suffer through something and – come out the other side. She describes her life as “horrifically beautiful and beautifully horrific. Guest BioDoina Oncel is a changemaker, founder, innovator, social entrepreneur, and a licensed financial advisor/broker, building communities and helping families with access to financial literacy. Doina works with women and families to help them build a legacy through financial education leading to a world of wealth.Doina was named the 2021 WXN Canada's Most Powerful Women: Top 100 Award Winner. Nominated for the 2021 Top 25 Canadian Immigrant Award and the 2020 WomenTech's Global Awards in the Women & Diversity in Tech Ally of the Year; Nominated for the Premier's Award by George Brown College. Doina is named a Role Model for Canadians by Barbie's "You can be anything" campaign; Named Trailblazer by Women in IP Institute of Canada Guest Social LinksEmail - onceldoina@gmail.comInstagram - @doinaoncel Facebook - www.facebook.com/doina.oncelThanks for listening!Thanks so much for listening to our podcast! If you enjoyed this episode and think that others could benefit from listening, please share it using the social media buttons on this page. Do you have some feedback or questions about this episode? Leave a comment in the section below!Follow the podcastIf you want to receive new podcast episodes automatically, you can follow us on Apple Podcasts or in your favourite podcast app.Please leave us an Apple Podcasts reviewRatings and reviews from our listeners are extremely valuable to us and greatly appreciated. They help our podcast rank higher on Apple Podcasts, which exposes our show to more awesome listeners like you. If you have a minute, please leave an honest review.Views Expressed, Legal and Medical DisclaimerThis podcast (including any/all site pages, blog posts, blog comments, forums, videos, audio recordings, etc.) is not intended to replace the services of a physician, nor does it constitute a doctor-patient relationship. Information is provided for informational purposes only and is not a substitute for professional medical advice. You should not use the information on this podcast for diagnosing or treating a medical or health condition. If you have or suspect you have an urgent medical problem, promptly contact your professional healthcare provider. Any application of the recommendations in this podcast/website is at the listener/reader's discretion. The views and opinions expressed are those of guests and do not necessarily reflect the opinion or policy of Dawn Taylor, The Taylor Way and or its Associates. The before mentioned are not liable for any direct or indirect claim or loss. TRANSCRIPT Dawn TaylorI am your host, Don Taylor. And today I have the privilege and the honor to talk to the amazing Doina Oncel. And yes, I asked her how to pronounce that to make sure I got it right. So today's topic is to homeless and back. Before we get started, though, let me tell you a little bit about our guest so that you can be as excited about her as I am and how honored I am to even have her here today. Doina is a changemaker, founder, innovator, social entrepreneur, and a licensed financial advisor and broker. She builds communities and helps families with access to financial literacy. She works with women and families to help them build a legacy through financial education, leading to a world of wealth. But some cool things that have also gone on for Doina is she was named the 2021 Wcn Canada's Most Powerful Woman Top 100 award winner. She was nominated for the 2021 top 25 Canadian Immigrant Award and the 2020 Women Tech Global Awards, and the Women in Diversity in Tech Ally of the year. And she was nominated for the Premier's Award by George College Brown. Guys, this girl is not collecting dust and she's not bored or boring. She was also named a role model for Canadians by Barbie's You Can Be Anything campaign and named Trailblazer by Women and IP Institute of Canada. So keep all that in mind as we talk about how she ended up homeless. Welcome to the show, Doina. I am so glad you're here.Doina Oncel Thank you so much, Dawn. I appreciate you having me here and I'm really excited to share my story. Dawn TaylorOh, I'm so excited. I'm excited to dive into it. And for those listeners, you've already heard me fumble a lot of words. Forgive. I've had a cold for the last week and I was like, there's no way I am canceling any of my podcast recordings this week, so there might just be some fumbling words or a little bit mumbly today. But, Doina, we have this epidemic really right now, and I know it's global, right? But especially in Canada, where we're seeing this at a higher rate than ever before and more being talked about it around being homeless and the judgments, the ideas, everything around it. And you are so open talking about what has all gone down in your life. I want to dive into this and really get a different perspective on it. But also, listeners, we're going to go into like how what do we need to do about this? Like how can we shift and change some of this and support people that we know that are homeless? So let's start at the beginning. You were how old when you came to Canada? Doina OncelOh, I was 19 years old when I came to Canada. I came from Romania. And, um, actually, what a lot of people don't know. And I think it's important for me that they do know. When I grew up in Romania, the first 16 years of my life, it was, I grew up in the communism regime. And then I've seen the revolution happen where the the communist regime was kicked down. And then three years later, I came to Canada. So it was very new and refreshing. So there's so many things that were happening for me at the younger age where I feel like, yeah, I kind of build resilience. But then yes, I when I came to Canada, I was it was a lot of new things, new, um, like after the revolution in Romania. So like a new life then coming to Canada, a new country.  So there's a lot of new things happening for me around that time. So yeah, I was 19 when I came to Canada and, I'm not sure if this may be important, but I didn't speak a word of English. I didn't even take English in school. The only thing I knew, I think I learned about two weeks when I got here. I knew "Hello. How are you? My name is Doina. And goodbye.: So people will be talking to me. They'll have a whole bunch of sentences, you know, saying stuff to me, and I'll just be nodding. Yes, yes, yes. Then I'll be like, goodbye at the end. But I have no idea what they're saying. So that was my first two weeks in Canada. Dawn TaylorOkay. So did you come to Canada on your own or do you have family with you? Did you have friends with you? Did you have any? Doina OncelYeah, I came well, my father was here before I came to Canada. He was here. So he brought my sister and I. My younger sister and I brought us here in Canada. So he was the only person that I knew. So, mind you, one, when he left the country, when he left from Romania, I was ten years old. I was still a child. And then when I came to Canada, when I arrived here, I was, I would like to say a woman, you know, 19, almost 20. I was a woman. So I was a, you know, basically for the half of my life, he wasn't around and half of my life. Half of my life, I had him around then, and after the later half, I didn't. And then when I came to Canada, I was a completely different person. So there are so many stages that he missed from my life before I got here. Dawn TaylorSo you came to Canada. The place of dreams and freedom and jobs and life and living this completely different world here. So you got married, had kids. Tell us a bit of your story of where you were and how, like how life started to progress for you as a young woman new to Canada that then resulted in becoming homeless. Doina OncelWell, actually. So, we're going to go back to when I just came to Canada. So I came to Canada. I was here with my dad. Uh, he brought us here, both my younger sister and I lived with him. He was married. He had two children. And his wife, then my stepmother was not very fond of us being here. So, actually, I lived we lived with him for the first ten months in Canada. And then she said, we can't live with him anymore. So we had to literally pack our stuff. And then, um, living somebody's living room for, for a week until we were able to find a place to stay. Yeah. So that was the first time I was homeless in Canada. So new immigrant, young, young women right out on the streets, not speaking very well English, trying to figure out life in Canada and your culture knew everything. Then we finally were able to find a place to stay. Um, and then after that about another year and a half later. Uh, we were homeless again, but my sister and I were homeless again. We're trying to go back and stay with my dad again because he said his marriage is not working well. So, he came back to us and said, can you come and stay with me so that we can, you know, I can finally be a father, so to speak? And then we just said, okay. Yeah. So I guess you are our father. We didn't have anybody here right in in Canada. We needed to have someone. So we said, okay, fine, we moved in with him, and then, we just decided to leave because things were very, very tough. It was so, like, really, really tough. Like, he was abusive. I would say abusive, as in, like he was trying to, the word would be abusive. It could be whatever people want to give the meaning they want to give. But basically he was trying to, um, keep finances from both my sister and I. So we not have enough money to be able to move on. Um, he was tracking all, like, everything that we spend just to make sure that, you know, if we were working in any money that we make goes towards the exact expenses. So, not be able to have anything, uh, for us to be able to build a life, you know, the dream, the American, the Canadian dream, the North American dream that we wanted, we couldn't do it. Uh, but also, to make matters worse, he was trying to, um, basically like, because when, as I mentioned earlier, whenmy dad left, I was ten years old when I came to Canada, I was 20, almost 20, 19 years old. And so he didn't look at me as as a child. He looked at me as a woman and he was trying to molest me. And so I have to take my sister. And we had to leave. And then I stayed. So, the second time when I was homeless, I went and in the shelter, the homeless shelter with my sister, and we stayed for about a week. We basically run away, I took my sister, we ran away. Uh, we went to inside the Ministry of Family and Children's, inside the building. And I said, we need help. We need, you know, this is what's happening to us. We can't take this anymore. And they just, uh, you know, this amazing woman. And if she needs to listen to this podcast. Barbara, she took us on as if she was our mom. So, she really took care of us, you know? And she was, um, I would say she was very... Her words meant a lot to me because when she said, you know. You were one of these young women that I wish my daughter will be inspired by, because when we were living in the shelter, it took me one week to find a job. It took me one week to find a place to stay because in back of my mind I said I didn't come to Canada to live like this. I came to Canada for better, and there's no way I'm going for worse. Because back home I had a mother that was taking care of us. We had a place to stay. We had everything we needed. So then coming here, you know what I mean? But yes, Barbara took care of us, you know. You know, she would come and visit us in the shelter. And then me, I was like, I need to know how to get out of here. You know how to find a place, how to find a job. And I remember when I was in the shelter, um, way back when. This is 25 years ago or more. Um, yeah, about 25 years ago. Um, we were not allowed to use the phone. All the time. We had to sign up to use the phone in the shelter, and then I would just be like sitting by the phone and just in case somebody missed the time, and then they were late and they couldn't use the phone, I want every opportunity I could get. And I had a newspaper back then when we used to read newspapers, and I was to circle all the jobs, all the places to stay, and I would just go in and I use my charm, whatever, I don't know, I think I had charms but she, I would get jobs, I got a job, I got a place to stay and I got a job. But because I also went into, into welfare, in here in Ontario where I am is called Ontario works all over Canada is called welfare. So I was on welfare and I went to my caseworker and I said, I need you to help me find a job. What programs do you have? What is, you know, what do you have available? And they had a program where they were offering training dollars through any employer that would hire someone from Ontario Works. And I would just go to every employer. And I said, there's this program, I'm in Ontario works. I'm on welfare, and there's this program that is offered. And if you hire me, you get money for training. So ,that's how I look before they hire me. So then I got the job. Um, but I lived in for one week. It was very devastating and very embarrassing because, you know, as a young woman coming to Canada, yes. I didn't have family and stuff, but then the community where I come from, the Romanian community was not very welcoming to me. Right. It was, I felt like I was like pushed back by everybody, you know, especially the Romanian community. Right. They were like, we don't want to have anything to do with you, because look at what you're doing to our culture, our, you know, to our people. And it felt like they were blaming me for standing up for myself. So, you know, being in that situation, to be honest with you is really, really tough. And I could understand why some people could like, you know, go into a really dark phase into their life having to go through that. Oh. After that, I came to Toronto. I lived in Vancouver. Back then, that was when all of this was happening, was in British Columbia. Then I moved to Toronto, and then I moved here because I wanted to stay away from myself. I want to start aresh. Um, that was like 20 years ago. So I said, I want to start fresh. I want to have a new life and start all over. And once I come here, I didn't get married, so I have my children, but I wasn't married. I was just, you know, I wanted to have children. And then because I thought, you know, being by myself in this country, I thought if I were to have children will be, will be giving me some company, but more like the love that I needed to have that I wanted. You know, I believe that everybody that's going through trauma, to be honest with you as women, you know, sometimes and in my case, especially with my first daughter, I had her because I thought, if I will have a child, I'll be loved unconditionally, not knowing how hard it is to actually raise a child. Right? So and then when I have my second daughter is when I experienced domestic violence, and that's when it was really, really harsh. I mean, being a young person new to Canada and being homeless was one thing, you know, feeling like it was the cause of a circumstance that was in not necessarily, you know, and plus it was mostly just me that I could, I will have to push through. Right? Just for myself. But now as a mother, when you have children, is really tough because so that time was the hardest part for me, being homeless is because. My youngest daughter was six months old and my oldest daughter was six years old. And then I experienced domestic violence. I had no money. I was $60,000 in debt. I was a business owner. Because I know a lot of like we mentioned earlier, sometimes you look at people that are homeless and then you judge and you think, oh, they might be there because they want to be there because they, you know, I was a business owner. I had a business that was making about $10,000 a month profit. This is15 years ago, 16 years ago. Right? And I was still broke. I had $60,000 in debt because I was with a partner that was alcoholic. Like, he would drink thousands of dollars that would go into the liquor store. Right. And instead of actually going into the household and the business and I was going, I was actually going through postpartum depression, and it was hard for me to keep track of things that were happening. Uh, you know, I used to, I didn't have his support. All right. I didn't have the support to actually get help for myself. I took it on myself. But then I didn't actually have that, you know, like, it's, I'm sure that a lot of people identify with this when you are alone, when you don't have help and support, and especially as a young mother, you are with a partner that is not supportive. You know, you have a business, but you don't have control of the money. You know what I mean? It's like it feels like it's things were just going down like, you know, the sand goes through the fingers, right? This kind of, I felt like my life was going at that time. And yeah, it was tough. It was tough because I feel like how could I be in this, in this situation. And actually while things were still holding up by very thin thread while I was in that relationship, I had so many people around me, they used to come to the house and like, you know, we have parties and we have, you know, things every weekend and spend thousands of dollars on, like alcohol and food and music and, you know, have a good time with me and a young baby and like, go through postpartum depression. And it was hard to say no to all of that. But people come to the house and enjoy themselves. But when I eventually went to the homeless shelter, like the abused women's shelter. Nobody was around after that. As soon as I got into the shelter, I used to call the same people that would come to the house and be like, hey, I want to hang out. Because for me, in my mind, I'm like, I want this to be temporary. This can't be my life. I come to Canada for this, right? It can't be my life. Dawn TaylorYou're like, I'm here again. How did I get here again? Doina OncelYes! So then I used to call them. I say, you know, let's hang out, like, can I, it's just me. Let's go to the park and stuff. And they're like, are you still, you know, are you still in the shelter? I say, yeah, like, oh no, no, no, let's hang out once you move on on your own place because I don't want to catch anything. And I was like, what? Like, seriously? Like, what would you catch? Homelessness? Homelessness is not, you know, transferable. It's not like, what would you catch from me, really? I'm still the same person. You used to come to the house and used to have a good time. Like I'm still the same person, but now I just need more. I know I need help, you know, there were very few people actually in my life around that time that were, you know, they really. They were supportive without taking my dignity away. Right?Dawn TaylorNo, no, no pause right there, though, for a second. That statement right there, though they were supportive without, there were very few people that were supportive without taking my dignity away. Doina OncelYes. Dawn TaylorI think that. So, so many thoughts. And I'm I'm looking at even as you're talking and looking through it in my head, as someone who's never been homeless, someone who's ever had to go to a shelter, someone who's never had to make those decisions for my family, to save my family, to protect my kids, to save my life. Right, right. And I remember years ago when I owned a restaurant, um, we brought lunch once a month to a women's shelter. And my some of my staff. I remember having conversations with him about it and going, no, no, no, nobody wants to come here. Nobody wakes up one day and is like, wow, I really think I should go to a homeless shelter or a women's shelter. They have gotten themselves into a position or decisions have been made, but somebody else has caused something to go on in their life that has gotten them to this point, and this is actually a step up for them. Doina OncelYes. Dawn TaylorThey were. And. I remember one of my staff members going, what do you mean? This is a step up? Like  they're homeless. 1s And I said yes, but they had to leave a very violent or toxic situation to go here. Right. But the fact that people around you took your dignity away. Do you think that's one of the biggest struggles that comes with being homeless or ending up homeless or whatever is like, your worth in regards to what you have, what you've done, who you are, all of that is stripped away, but your dignity is taken away with it. Doina OncelYes. When people make you feel less than because now you're not where they what they expect you to be, or even what I expected to be, I didn't expect. That's not my like you said, that wasn't my dream. I didn't wake up and say like, oh, I can't wait. You know, I'm just going to check in the homeless shelter. I'm going to be there with my kids. And then we're going to depend on everybody else around us for survival, for food, for everything, for shelter. Right? That's not that wasn't my dream when when people were coming across. And they're making me feel even worse because. And those are the people I thought were my friends. Um, and I remember even before I checked in the shelter because, so what's really, um, I would say funny, but like, funny, you know, like, not the ha ha way, but funny as, like, how life works, right? It's that I just finished before my abuse, I just finished, I went to George Brown College, the one that you mentioned earlier. And they, they nominated me for the for the Award, you know, about ten years later. But, um, I studied the assaulted women's and children's counselor advocate program. So I study social work with the feminist perspective. My job was to was supposed to be me helping women as the one that I was right going to abuse. Coming new to Canada, experiencing barriers. That's what I was supposed to do. And I feel like I was my first case study. Really. But I didn't, you know, I still could not, even though I studied this stuff. And I remember, uh, and when I finally put my stuff in storage, and I had my kids in the car and I was driving, I said I was calling people, and I said, I need a place to stay for a night or two nights until I find something to get myself together. And people were like. Well, this is not a good time for me or I don't have space. Mind you, I didn't know these people's places. What they had, like what they live or anything. They used to come to my house every weekend to have a good time, but I didn't know.Dawn TaylorI was gonna say they were enjoying partying at your house. Doina OncelOh, yeah, there were that. Just that. But then for me to actually, I didn't know where they live. I had no idea. I just know they live in a different city or an area. But I've never been to their place, and I was asking for help. They're like, oh, this is not a good time. I don't actually have space. I don't, you know, and I remember if you're like, what am I going to do? You know what I mean? Like, I don't want to be here. Like, how how do I look my kids in the eye and say, look, you know, this is where we are. It's it's really not that, you know, a dream come true. Um, it's it was it was really, really tough and then while I was in the shelter, when I was asking people, I said, can we hang out? They'll say no, because I might catch something from you, which was kind of ridiculous. But there's a couple of people, like one one friend in particular. She has a daughter that was very close to my oldest daughter in age, you know, like two days apart. And we met in the park before all of this happened. And she used to come like, hey, my daughter wants a play date. Can you come over with, you know, with your daughter so they can play together? She never would be like, oh, I want you to come over. I want to see you. I want to spend more time with you because I don't want you to be in that environment the whole time. But she used to make it in a way that, you know, we're still the same. You're still the same person. She never made me feel like I am less than just because I live in a shelter. And she would make me food. And, you know, because she knew that I love her cooking. So she would make me food. And, you know, it was it was a little bit of normalcy. There was another friend of mine that had a restaurant back then, and he used to just say, hey, come over, you know, come by the restaurant because we have, you know, there's a new item in the menu, so I want you to try it out. Little did you know that was after I moved out. Like, you know, while I was in the shelter, I was still going in and visit. But then after I moved out for a couple of years after, he still be like, come over and just have some. We have this new thing on the menu. I want to test it out. I want you to tell me if you like it or whatever, just making it sound like, you know, I was like such a celebrity or whatever, I don't know, but, if I wouldn't go to either his restaurant, I won't have food to eat. I will feed my kids. But that's all I had, right? Like to just buy food for the kids. And then I would just go eat at his restaurant. But he never made me feel that he's doing me a favor or that he's feeling sorry for me. He didn't have that pity, you know? I was just somebody that he appreciated. And he, you know, he knew what I was going through, but he didn't want to make me feel like I was, you know, less than, you know, he added value like this. These people, this especially these two people, they they made me feel valuable. They added value to, to me, you know, during that time. And it's it's really tough. And I'm going to share another story because we're talking about how people feel when you, you know, when you are homeless. One thing I remember while I was living in the shelter, I used to. But my kids in the car and I used to go visit my mom and we used to drive, and, um, there was a there was one intersection closer to where my mom was, and there was a homeless guy asking for money at that intersection. Every time the red light would stop, people in the car would give money. At first I didn't have. I remember right before I moved in the shelter, I took the empty bottles from the alcohol, from my ex and I took it at the liquor store and they give you money, they gave me was worth $5. And so I'm like I'm going to give my, with really good intention. But I feel like this $5 is the reason why I am who I am. Because the alcohol was the reason why I was where I was. Like, I didn't want to use the $5 for me, but I want to give good energy to those $5 and pass it off to this person. So I gave him the $5. I said it was my last $5. I didn't have money, but I said, I want you to have it. And he was very grateful. And every time, like after I moved the shelter, I used to bring it to kind of, kind of pop some, you know, some desserts, some, you know, some food. And I'll just pass it on because I don't have money. But, you know, I would just eat less and I just want him to have some food too. And he was very grateful. And then one time I remember I was, uh, a few cars back, you know, and there was a car right by him. And he was sitting there and it was very polite. He wasn't like, oh, you know, like, you can tell that this man was very gracious, very graceful for whatever.Dawn TaylorHe wasn't aggressive.Doina Oncel Absolutely. No. And he these people in a very fancy car. What they waited for a little bit and right before the light turned red. Right. They took a whole bunch of change in back in the day when we had pennies. And it's like a lot of pennies. A lot of change. It took and just threw it at him and then they drove off. And the man just went to pick up the money from the ground and he was still saying, thank you, thank you, thank you. And I'm just like, I was so mad because I'm like, why do people have to treat people less fortunate that they are with that much disrespect? Do you know that it could be that you could be that person there someday? You never know. I mean, and even to this day when people talk about homeless people, oh, homeless people are there because, you know, they just make poor life choices. And like, yes, that may be true, but then do you know that that could be you someday. Yeah. Like to be anybody. And when I say tell people like I was homeless, you're looking at somebody that was homeless. Like, you probably don't see this now, but I was so like, no way were you? Yes, I was, because it doesn't matter who you are, it could be anybody and you could just be in that circumstance. You're only like one life decision away. Or it could be either, not even you that makes that decision. It could be the economy. That whatever's happening right now with people not having jobs getting laid off. And there's nothing that you know that they can do, they could be homeless with the with what's happening in the real estate industry, the mortgages, you know, the rates go up double and people are losing their homes. That could happen to anybody. Right. So. I just wish people would stop with stop, right. Dawn TaylorThere's so many, there's so many judgments about itm around it. And it's an interesting conversation to have with people when, yes, there's drug issues and alcohol issues and a lot of mental health issues tied to many, many, many people that have been homeless. But I remember when economy was crashing years ago. I mean, probably like 10, 15 years ago, one of the big crashes that happened and they were interviewing people in a tent community in the States, and they were talking in a lot of them had lost, like it was like their retirement had been taken away and like a Madoff scam or something like that. Right? Like they had lost everything. They couldn't afford to feed themselves anymore. They couldn't afford their mortgage because of the way the rates went. And it wasn't even that they were financially irresponsible people. It was that there at that point, there were no jobs. There weren't there? There was nothing. Right. And they were struggling so hard. But I remember one couple that they interviewed. I'll never forget it to the day I die. The looks on their faces of shame. And they had kids that they could have told and they're like, no, our kids don't even know. Yeah. This couple in their 70s and their own children had no idea that they were living on the streets. And they were like, no, we go out and we look for jobs every day and, you know, we're pounding the pavement, but we're trying to find money to, you know, pay for printing resumes and all of those things. And I think that right now, being homeless, there's so many things like that that people aren't looking at is. One is how hungry you are, right? Like think about how your brain doesn't function fully when you're hungry. Right. When you're hungry, you aren't thinking clearly to begin with. Right now. Be hungry for days and days and days and weeks and weeks and weeks on end. Doina OncelHow do you get a job when you don't have a address?Dawn Taylor Don't have an address? Doina OncelDo you have address to get a job to put on the resume? You need an address,  right? You can't get an apartment or anything else, or you can't find anything. Address? Uh, whose address can you use? Like, really? And especially if you are too embarrassed or you don't know how. There's no judgment onto the decisions that people make, right? Uh, how to whether they want to tell people or not. Like, that's not something that you. You know, you everybody feels comfortable talking about right to share with people. Um, so we don't want to judge. We don't want to judge, of any people start drinking alcohol and taking drugs or whatever. That would be a coping mechanism for whatever the circumstance they on. This is not some this is not us too judging to say, oh well, I didn't do it. I could just say, yeah, me, I would say the first time when I lived in a shelter, it took me a week to find a job. And it doesn't mean that everybody else had the same outcome like me. It's not that they didn't want that, but they had different, there were women that I had babies. How could you find a job in a week when you have a baby and you just know daycare, there's no you know, there's so many reasons why people are, or some people move faster than others. For me, I feel like I was lucky because I found some people that were a little bit ahead of where I was, because I decided to to find the people for me, my my people versus like looking up to everybody, uh, as to who's going to help me, people that I already had in my life before. I'm like, obviously they're not here for me and they're not going to help me. So I decided to find my my circle. Right? And then that helped me because those people are believed in me. They saw something in me that I didn't see myself. I consider myself lucky, so I found them. Not everybody has that right, because sometimes you could be in a community where, you know, it could be in a community where you are around people from the same country as you, and then you can't make a move forward because people are going to look at you different. You you're really concerned about what they might think or what they might say. So you put a facade for them. Uh, you know, or you might be around people that they just do drugs and then they just know the, the next thing that you, you know, likely are to be doing because that's what you have around. There's there's no way for us to judge again, as a coping mechanism. My coping mechanism when I was in the shelter until I found my own place, until I found myself like, I'm ready to go now was I used to go out all the time. I used to just go and buy cheap clothes and go out dancing, like, you know, I get my mom, watch my kids, I'm out. Yeah. You know, and until one day and I'm like. My aha moment. Well, I had two aha moments. One is when I was in the shelter. I remember sitting at the dining room table. We just had dinner, and I was holding my younger daughter and my on my lap. And then my oldest daughter, you know, she was sitting by me. She was having fun with her friends before she had dinner. And then she stood by me. And, you know, she was happy she ate something that she liked. I think it was. And then she said, you know, mom, I love you so much. She says, when I grow up, I want to be just like you. And I was like, whoa. I realized that, you know where I'm at in decisions that I'm making. And you know what? I'm going through life. I can't tell my kids. Do better if I'm not doing better, right? So that was my motivator. Not everybody not everybody has that. So for me, that was it. And then, the second time was when I was I told you my mechanism was going out dancing 3 or 4 times a week, I would just be going out and dance until whenever and then come home and go to work, find something to do and, you know, to make money to pay the bills. But I remember that one last time when I decided I can't do this anymore was when I bought a ticket already to go out. And then right before I left, I looked in the fridge and I saw there's no milk. So I'm supposed to because my kids are still young. They all drink milk every day. There's no milk. And all I had in my bank account was $10. And I was like, okay, so I need to change my life because I. How do I get to go out and buy a drink for myself? Like, you know, I feel like I had to make a choice. Like, do I buy a drink for me or do I buy milk for my kids tomorrow? You know, so I'm like, I sat down and luckily this was on a boat. And I feel like, you know, I look at things as though, like this was to happen so that it can force me to sit there and think. I was on a boat, so I don't swim. I couldn't even jump in the water to swim to the shore to go home. I was on and so I just felt that, you know, I need to change my life. I need to do something for my kids. I can't have them. I can make these choices. Yes, I like going out. I love dancing. Well, who doesn't? Right? I love dancing, but I when I go out, I want

Why you would want to listen to this episode…2024 is here and it’s now time to close the book on 2023. However, sometimes it can be really overwhelming to start a whole new year. What should we expect? And where do we even start? On this episode of Taylor Way Talks, Dawn shares some practical advice you can apply to your goals, relationships and professional life so that you can make sure your best foot’s always forward for the new year and beyond.Who this forIf you are someone who’s always had a hurdle when it comes to making the most out of your 12 months of the year, then this episode is for you because you are not alone! Even the host of this very podcast feels the same way at times. With that in mind, this episode is a look at some tips, tricks and words of wisdom as to how we can learn to take control of 2024 and all the years to follow. About Dawn TaylorDawn Taylor is the professional ass-kicker, hope giver, life strategist, trauma specialist, and all-around badass. Dawn's journey into helping others heal began when she took her personal recovery from the trauma she experienced in her life into her own hands. While at times unconventional, Dawn’s strategic methods have helped hundreds heal from traumas such as issues related to infidelity,  overcoming addiction,  working through PTSD from sexual, emotional, and physical abuse, as well as helping cult survivors thrive. Dawn’s work has empowered entrepreneurs, stay-at-home moms, and CEOs alike to be superheroes in their own lives. Having completed thousands of hours of training from many professional programs, including the Robbins Madanes Training Institute, Dawn’s blunt honesty will challenge your thinking, broaden your awareness, and help you achieve the outstanding results you are worthy of.Connect with Dawn here at The Taylor Way: Consultation Call | Website | Facebook | Instagram | LinkedInGet to know Dawn on a deeper level through her book! Order HereP.S. I Made It, is a powerful story that grabs you through its lack of pretension and honesty. Every page reveals another layer of curious wonder at both Dawn’s life and the power of hope that moves within each of us. Dawn’s hope is that you use this book as a resource to deal with your struggles. Share it with someone who needs it. We all want to feel like someone understands what it’s like to suffer through something and – come out the other side. She describes her life as “horrifically beautiful and beautifully horrific. Thanks for listening!Thanks so much for listening to our podcast! If you enjoyed this episode and think that others could benefit from listening, please share it using the social media buttons on this page. Do you have some feedback or questions about this episode? Leave a comment in the section below!Follow the podcastIf you want to receive new podcast episodes automatically, you can follow us on Apple Podcasts or in your favourite podcast app.Please leave us an Apple Podcasts reviewRatings and reviews from our listeners are extremely valuable to us and greatly appreciated. They help our podcast rank higher on Apple Podcasts, which exposes our show to more awesome listeners like you. If you have a minute, please leave an honest review.Views Expressed, Legal and Medical DisclaimerThis podcast (including any/all site pages, blog posts, blog comments, forums, videos, audio recordings, etc.) is not intended to replace the services of a physician, nor does it constitute a doctor-patient relationship. Information is provided for informational purposes only and is not a substitute for professional medical advice. You should not use the information on this podcast for diagnosing or treating a medical or health condition. If you have or suspect you have an urgent medical problem, promptly contact your professional healthcare provider. Any application of the recommendations in this podcast/website is at the listener/reader's discretion. The views and opinions expressed are those of guests and do not necessarily reflect the opinion or policy of Dawn Taylor, The Taylor Way and or its Associates. The before mentioned are not liable for any direct or indirect claim or loss.  TRANSCRIPTDawn TaylorHey, hey, hey. It's me. Dawn Taylor, your host. And today we have a different episode for you. So, you guys get to hear me be interviewed today. Except for this one is planned. This one's a little bit more planned, but we really wanted to put this episode out for you guys, so I hope you enjoy it. And welcome to the show as the host, Miss Jenny Rice.Jenny RyceThank you so much, Don, for having me. And it's always fun to be on the other side of the mic. I love doing the interviewing, to be honest. It's my favorite part. So, thank you for asking me to take this role on and hijack again the Taylor Way talks. Really appreciate it. Dawn TaylorYou're welcome. So take it from here Miss Host. Jenny RyceSo, we're rolling into a new year a whole new year. We, you know, you hear the terms new year new, new you. Dawn TaylorI may have thrown up a little.Jenny Ryce“Did I actually vomit in my mouth?” Dawn TaylorI may have. I may need a break right now. I need to stop this. Jenny RyceSo what I wanted to talk about, because you and I have had lots of conversations outside of obviously this recording about, you know, what does next year look like? And the biggest thing that we touch on is we kind of need to close out the current year, you know, what does that look like? So when you're rolling into a new year, you're at the back end of, you know, the year you're in. What are some things that you do to set yourself up for the next year? Dawn TaylorSo, a couple of things and I'm going to start right on December 1st. So one of the things I do on December 1st is I sit down and look at my calendar for the month, and I really determine, like, what is it that I need out of this month? So this month, because I'm taking some time off in January. I was like, no, no, no, I'm working like I am working hard and I'm just going to, like, plow through these three weeks knowing I have time off at Christmas. Well, that was different this year because I know things are happening in January, right? Some years it's like, no, I really, really need to breathe a little bit more this month. And for me, it's often how - do I end my year? Do I want to end it like a freight train speeding through a city? Do I want to end it gracefully? Do I want to end it with excitement, with passion, with fun? Do I just need it to be really calm and quiet? And a lot of that is based on what the previous 11 months have been. Right? And so with that, one of the other things that I look at is like, do I want to work on my Fridays? Do I want to work Friday nights? Where can I add in this gift of time for myself throughout the month so that I can go and do things? Some years I just want to drive around and look at Christmas lights a few nights a week. Other years I want to go to concerts or shows or plays or things. So, I'm really big on setting an intention for my December. I think it's so easy to get caught up in the mayhem of it. It's so easy to get caught up in, like visiting and menus and feeding and parties and doing all the things that have to do them all perfectly, and watch all the hallmark movies and bake the cookies. Right? Like, there's such an intensity this month that I actively work to, like, take away the intensity. That is one of the first things that I do. The second thing that I do is I look over my year and think, okay, what worked about this year? What was amazing about this year? What sucked about this year and what could I change in the new year? To make it a little bit better. So I find that waiting until January 1st, second, third, fourth. The new year comes in just as fast. As September seems to every year. Right? It's never gentle. It's always like I go because everyone's been somewhat shut down over Christmas. A lot of people have slowed down in December. They're not doing meetings as much or networking as much or working as much. And no, January hits and everyone hits the ground running and it's mayhem. So, I try to look at this stuff at the beginning of December or like mid-December, and I just block time on my calendar to do it, to really look at like, okay, what all went down this year? So, how do I do this? One of them is I actually go day by day through my calendar. And I like to do this either, like, middle of the month or I'll do it depending on if I have a house full of company. Like this year, I'm scheduling this on the 31st because I have no people in my house and I will have had a few days off. So, on the 31st in the morning, I go down to my office and I sit with my calendar and I have a piece of paper beside me and it's like, dos, don't, change. And or whatever words you want to use. And what that is, is like, hey, that that is something I did last year there was amazing. Maybe it was, go for coffee with that person. Maybe it was that networking group. Maybe it was that training that I did. It doesn't matter what it was, but it's like I need to do more of that next year. That was something that was amazing and valuable for me. The don'ts are like, are you for real? Did you actually do that thing again? It's the lesson that we're learning in it. And maybe it's launched. The thing that ended up sucking. Maybe it's going to business with somebody and you're like, why did I go into business? I mean, I don't like going into business with someone, and this isn't something I've done, okay? If my business partner is listening. No, that's not you. But like, it's really about looking at it and going. What has been amazing. What hasn't. Right? You know that networking group that you go to when you're like, that sucked. Like, why did I do that? Why did I go to that thing? But then you catch yourself a few months later, someone invites you and you're like, yeah, okay, go again. And then you walk out of it again, going, seriously, how many times do I have to waste my money on this before this is actually too much, right? Honestly, I can tell you right now, one of mine this year, there's a few different things like that that are going to be involved. But one of them is like the level of travel I did this year for work. That needs to shift, right? And yes and no. It has been amazing and I've loved every second of it. But I also burned myself out doing it because really, I was trying to fit a year's worth of work into six months. Jenny RyceMhm. Dawn TaylorRight. So in the new year, what do I want to do different? What do I want to shift in that way. And that's where I look at it and go, oh, you know what? There was not enough of that activity in my calendar. There wasn't enough of that activity in my calendar because I put everything in it. Even friend dates, breakfast dates, all of those things. I can see that. So, a couple of years ago. When I was doing this, I realized that I didn't get enough friend time. And because I'm an introvert. Because I feel everyone feels because I have, you know, maybe a lower capacity for people than some people do. And especially with the thyroid stuff. Right? I realized that I was like, man, it'll go months between seeing people. And I'm not okay with that. So, one of my intentional behavior shifts I did that year was I picked five people that I contacted and said, “Hey, I want a regular set time with you every month or every other month.” Can we put it in our calendars, first week of January? Like, can we just book this in? Jenny RyceAnd I can actually contest because I was one of those people. Dawn TaylorYou were. It's true, Jenny RyceI remember. I remember you reaching out and saying. And I'm like, yes, yes, we can do that.Dawn TaylorRight? Jenny RyceAnd we just always work together. Just for the record. Dawn TaylorLike, you know, it's only been like a year, right? So like in our friendship years. Right. Like that was something that I was very intentional about. And I would challenge anyone listening to this to do that. I have built the coolest relationships with people, and there has been way more connection that's happened because it's intentional, because we set that lunch every single month or every two months. We set the coffee, we set the half hour zoom, we set whatever it is, and it just becomes a regularity in our calendar. And now a couple years into this, some of them, it's like, “Oh, I can't this week or no, I can't or and it's not a big deal.” It's not a big deal because you know, you have another one booked, but you're also now not having to be like, oh shoot, it's been three months, four months, six months, eight months since I've seen this person I really, genuinely like and love this person and I want to spend more time with them. And so, that was one of the things that I shifted. That has been one of the best decisions I ever made. And I am thinking now of like, who do I want to fill those spots next year? Who do I want to fill those spots and build deeper relationship with? Right.  So that is one of the things that I do. Another thing that I do is I look at all of my wins of the year. Write all of the wins, and it doesn't matter if it was just like I got through a whole week without having to cancel any sessions because I was feeling so sick, or I got through like I actually went to every chiro appointment. It doesn't matter. It doesn't matter what it is. Or like I hit my financial goal with my company or I, you know, I did something really, really cool. I crossed an item off my bucket list. I look at that massive list of wins and I give it a number, I give it a weight. And so maybe it's like, wow, I got I did like a 92% this year. Like I crushed it in this area. Guess what? I do the same with my failures. I do the same with the things that I've bombed on, and do the same with the things that I sucked at. Right? And I look at those and I'm like, okay, as long as the wins number is higher than the losses number, I'm really, really proud of myself and happy. But then with that, that is something that I'm as I'm going through that list, right. If it's like, oh, you did 72 consultations and got four clients, what are you doing wrong in these consultations or whatever, the numbers are, right. That actually gives you your patterns. It gives you your shifts and behavior. I'm like, oh, that's something I need to look at. That's something that I need to do different. And for anyone who doesn't have a business, this is no different in your personal life. It's like, what do you need to shift in some of those areas? And then another thing that I do is I go through all of my photos. I scroll on the 31st of every year. I've done this for as long as I can remember. I go all the way back to the beginning of January the previous year, and I scroll every single photo. It gives me an amazing opportunity to delete all the screenshots of the things that I think I'm going to do that I'm never going to do, because who doesn't have a thousand of those? Oh, I'm going to make that recipe. Oh, I'm going to go to that concert. Oh, I'm going to Google this later. Yeah. No we don't, we really don't. So that gives me an opportunity either to be like, yeah, okay, I need to save this one or no, I need to actually like run for my life and just delete  these. But it also shows me that in the mayhem and the chaos of the year and everything that's been going down, but it shows me all of the highs. It shows me the adventures that shows me the amazing meals that I ate. It shows me the laughter with the kids that I hung out with, with my nieces and nephews. We forget. We are so quick to forget every single thing that happened throughout our year. And because we are on our cell phones, we actually can, like we could go back and look because we snap photos of everything these days. Right? And it's always entertaining. I often will bring my husband in on it, or I'll like, shoot a text to somebody and be like, oh my God, do you remember doing this thing? And it shows you all of these amazing moments. All of these amazing moments that happen through the year. And honestly, it's one of my favorite things that I do all Christmas Break, is one of my highlights. Jenny RyceI love that. So for those of us listening, the value in reflection is so important. And I think actually that's our, you know, our biggest topic on the blog posts that you've written this month for December is reflection. And taking the time, honoring yourself and taking the time to review that. So. What I loved is you talked about dos, don'ts and, you know, need more ofs and all those kind of things. But one word that hasn't popped up yet is shoulds. Can we dig into the shoulds? Because, you know, shoulds can be absolutely detrimental to your well-being. Dawn TaylorMhm. Jenny RyceAnd I love your take on it. Dawn TaylorFor sure. So. Honestly, a lot of the should show up in that don't do this again column. It's the shoulds that show up in the failures. It's the should the show up in the. I can't believe I wasted money on that or I spent money on that, or I put that much time and energy into that, or I launched that thing or whatever it is. I visited those people again. I had that coffee date that I shouldn't have had. Right? It's that's where the shoulds really show up. So when I'm looking at those and I mean this is something that I've, I'd like to say that I've gotten really good at over the years. And, I mean, I still have my moments where I suck at this and I, I say yes.Jenny RyceOh my gosh, Dawn, are you human? Dawn TaylorWhat? No, no! I have really, really hit this point where I trust my gut and if I'm like, what am I doing? Like, why am I doing this? One of the first questions I ask is like, should I be doing this? Is this somebody else's expectation of me? Or is this my expectation of myself?And if it is my expectation of myself, is it a good expectation of myself? Is it a positive expectation of myself? Is it created from a place that I'm okay with having this expectation? Right? I should visit people everywhere I go. I don't. I don't. I'm going to just put that out there. I will travel to cities and never call a person that I know in the city. And it's not because I don't love that person. It's not any of that. It's knowing why I'm there, my intention behind why I'm there. And do I have the capacity to see people? And often I don't. Some people I totally do. Some times I totally do based on what my schedule is, but I have given myself permission to just not. Right? I should show up at a lot of different events that I don't show up at. I should support friends with lunches and with things that they're doing in events that they're hosting, and all of those things. But one thing I've realized is that I should. Yes, yes, I should. But I also could phone that person. I could share their content. I could share that event with other people. I know there's 100 other ways I could support them. Knowing that if I show up to that event with no capacity, knowing if I show up to that event burnt out, knowing that I'm actually not going to, it's not going to benefit anyone. Jenny RyceWhen you think about your journey to honoring this should. Because when we think about that word, it's it's like you're obligated, like you're putting an obligation with that word, like you should do this and you say, now it's easier, which I admire because I'm fortunately moving into that place in my life to where I'm very aware of my shoulds. What are some beginning steps that you would recommend for people that are still literally shooting themselves into exhaustion or shooting themselves into? And you know what that sounds like when I say it fast, like shooting those selves into, you know, commitments that they don't want to be a part of and all those kind of things. What was your foundation, your starting point to kind of move into a new habit around that.Dawn TaylorSo, one thing I did, and this is very much the logistical piece of my brain, is I sat down and looked at like business work, like business life. Right? Client life, which is very different in my brain because there's the working in my business and the working on my business, which are two very different things. And then my personal life. And then I kind of broke that even down into categories of like family, friends, home. And health. That's always one of my health. Always is on my list. Right? And then how I looked at it, at how I started looking at it. So, from like a business standpoint will say is clients. Should I open up a Saturday? Because that's the only time that a client might be able to come and see me. Yeah, I probably should, because that would be good and blah blah  blah blah blah, right? Will it be beneficial to my client when I burn out because I've been working Saturdays, will I be able to actually show up at as 100% in that moment? No. So, now am I actually serving the client, or am I going to cause more problems down the road because I did a session when I shouldn't have? Right? I had that situation this fall where  I, almost in a bullying way, had someone bully me to coach when I was really sick. And then it turned out really bad for everybody, myself and them. And it ended up being kind of vicious. And it was really horrible. And I knew better. Like. And I said to you, like, I 100% knew better. I should not coach when I'm sick. So what the hell was I thinking? Right? New rule moving forward. Zero work when I'm sick, right? But with that, it's it's setting those boundaries and rules for yourself and looking at - no, no, no. Why did I set this rule for myself in the first place?  What was my intention behind it? It's not. To harm someone is to protect myself so that I can do what I want to do. Right. The million networking events? Is this actually going to benefit my business? Is this something that's going to benefit it? Do I love the relationships and the friendships in there? Yes. But if somebody is actually my friend or there is a relationship there, they should be being bumped into my friend column that I'm spending time with in a different way. Right? Or is it just showing up in that room constantly because it's like, oh, hey, visibility, visibility, visibility. Right? And desiring that. Because at some point you have to acknowledge to yourself that these are business acquaintances and business friends. It doesn't mean they're your friend friends. And yes, they can cross over. But really looking at like, what is it I need out of this networking event? If I'm going to go, that's a problem. If I'm going because there's referral partners in the room because there's an ROI on this event, then it makes sense to go. Right? And acknowledging that just because you say no, it's not you rejecting those people, it's not you rejecting the event. It's not you rejecting those friends. It's saying to yourself, like, this does not make sense in my business right now. And as a fellow business owner, somebody else should be able to understand that potentially, right? If they have that business sense or they have the emotional intelligence or they have what it takes to be like, no, I totally get it. I understand why you only show up once a month instead of twice a month or no, that makes sense. We can't do lunch every single week as entrepreneur business owners, because you need the time to do other stuff in your business, right? So, that is a big piece of it. Then when it comes to the personal side of it. A lot of it. And maybe these are just like big boundaries of set up over in the past. But, I was raised in a house where every single time we went on vacation, it was with family. Every holiday included traveling to family. And nobody was happy about it. It was like, yay! We get to play and have fun! But then we also listened to our parents bitch about it for the entire four day drive home. And we would, like drive across Canada and listen to this. And it became a thing with my husband or myself that were like, no, every other time. And we started with like every three times or every four times that we're going to do something or we have a long weekend or we get to have a break, we're going to not go visit them. We're not. We're just not going to go visit family on those weekends, and that's okay. Right? Because we are a family too. And that's allowed. Right? That's allowed. We were talking last night. We host every single Christmas is at our house and we love it. It's gotten to the point where we absolutely love it. So we hosted my family one year, his family one year. And now that there's adult nieces and nephews, they want to come every year. So we're working that into things and around things and. And I asked him this morning, literally over coffee, I said, do you think there will come a time when you and I decide that we want to, like, start our own Christmas tradition? Of something we do. And he's like, what would that even look like? And I said, I don't know, but not having kids, right? Because we couldn't I was like, what if we started where it was like, everybody can come up to the 30th, but on the 30th, every year we hop a plane and disappear for a few days and maybe we like, go on a cruise, maybe we go to the mountains, maybe we go explore somewhere. Maybe we go to an all inclusive whatever that would look like, and we start our own tradition. And it was a very interesting conversation to have because that was part of it was like, but, you know, everyone comes to our house like, we should be here longer. And. And I was like, no, by putting in a healthy boundary, a healthy plan for us. That's not us rejecting someone else. It's just putting a parameter on it. It's just shifting it a little bit to make it so that all of us are happy. And that's okay. Like that's actually 100% okay. So I would start there. I would start with people that are like close to you that, you kniow, love you. And say, your friends having a Mary Kay party. Say your friend is having a temperature party. So your friend is hosting some party at their house for something. And you're like, man, I just can't, like, I know I should go to this, but I actually just can't this week. Phone them and go, hey! I love you, but I can't. If you have the budget for it, you can be like, I'll order something anyways to help with your party or I'll do something like that. But you know what? I just can't this week and start there. Start with save people. When people cancel on me, I'm always like, Rock on, well done. And people laugh. They're like, you're the easiest person to bail on. And I'm like, yes, because I fully understand that and I understand the need for that and the, like. You are holding a healthy boundary for yourself and you are protecting your mental, emotional, physical, spiritual, financial, relational health. How would I like I could never get mad at you for that. Like way to go. And like I am the first person to be like, yes, way to go! So if you need to practice, cancel on me, right. Book something and cancel it. We can do this. But start there. Start with those things. The things. Or if it's like a group or a thing that you're like, I genuinely hate this. Like this makes me angry. This stresses me out. This causes me problems. That was a really easy one to bail on. And you know what? One of our like, little I probably shouldn't put this out there, but I'm going to. One of our little things is I have a friend and a husband that allow me to blame everything on them. Jenny RyceYes. Dawn TaylorThere are times when I'm like, Chad, I need you to tell me that I am not allowed to do this thing. And he will literally look at me and go, you are not allowed to do this thing. And I go, thank you. Jenny RyceWe sometimes need that permission, right? Dawn TaylorI've actually fully jokingly written permission slips for clients before. Jenny RyceI love it. Dawn TaylorAnd they're like, it's like I. Dawn Taylor hereby grant you permission to not, whatever it is. Jenny RyceWhatever it is, whatever it is you feel obligated to. Dawn TaylorBecause sometimes we need that. Right? So I, I will I will full on use the blame card if I need to. Jenny RyceSo when we think about, you know, that should word really. There's so much, um, compromise. Set up into that word. So when we think about what you're sharing and what's really valuable and what's highlighting for me is who are you saying yes to and who are you saying no to, and becoming very clear on what's more important, because you say yes to everything. You're saying no to something. Dawn TaylorTotally. And by choosing yourself, you're not rejecting someone else. And I want you to hear it. Like I've said it before, I'm gonna say it again. Like I love you, but I love me more. Does not mean you're selfish. It does not mean you're evil. It does not mean you're a bad person. It does not mean any of those things. It's actually giving yourself permission to choose yourself sometimes.  Jenny RyceAbsolutely. So let's let's play with a fun word. So we did the should word do it. Hey can we say resolution. Dawn TaylorOh fuck. Sorry if your kids are listeningJenny Ryce Talk to me. What's your what's your philosophy, belief system, thoughts? I mean, you did drop the f-bomb so I have a pretty good idea of where this is going to roll. Let's talk about new year's resolutions.Dawn TaylorA lot of people need the new year, new me mentality because it's like a starting off point. It's a jumping off point and it's like, okay, this is the thing I'm going to do. Cool. Go for it. If that is what you need to make a shift in your behavior. Go for it. To make a resolution. Number one. The majority of our habits were formed out of a protection mechanism. Positive or negative. They were formed out of a protection mechanism. They were formed for a reason. So to just massively shift your habits and your behaviours overnight, not going to happen. It's not going to happen. So people will decide. I mean, anyone who's ever worked in a gym knows that this is a thing. People will decide they're going to go from zero to here overnight. I'm going to go from never cooking to cooking three meals a day, seven days a week, overnight. I'm going to all of a sudden start going to the gym five times a week or seven times a week. I'm all of a sudden going to quit all of these behaviors that I have been doing for as long as I can remember. Bullshit. It doesn't work that way. There's a very small percentage of people that can actually make a decision and shift their entire behaviors overnight.Jenny RyceMhm. Agreed.Dawn Taylor Very tiny percentage of people like probably like a 3% kind of number. Like it's very, very hard to find these unicorns that can actually make change in that way. If you can. Kudos to you. I can when it comes to food, when it comes to anything around like food, eating very like there's a lot of categories in my life. I can actually do that, but there's some that I can't. And when I look at why it's so hard for me to make that shift or what the struggle is, it's always because of a protection mechanism. Always, at some point in my life, the habit that's already there, the behavior that's already there, saved me, protected me, made me feel like I was in control or made me feel safe. So we set all these New Year's resolutions and then we fail. And then we feel like crap because we failed so hard. So here's a few things that I love around New Year's. What is one behavior shift I could make this year? And some years I'll do like one a month where it's like, okay, what is a behavior shift I could do? Maybe it's before I'm allowed to have a second cup of coffee. I have to drink three cups of tea and a water. It doesn't matter what it is like. It could be something super simple. One of my own here is like. Phone someone instead of responding with a text. Which I know drives people crazy, but you'd be amazed how many people actually love the connection of a voice. Right?  Sometimes it's like one year, one month. I was like, I'm going to start fueling up my car every Sunday. So that I don't feel stressed out. Middle of the week when I'm out of gas and I'm running to a meeting and I don't have time to stop and fuel up.  Do you see these? Like little tiny, tiny micro shifts? You could choose one a month all year and completely shift your entire world over the course of a year. But then I also choose New Year's resolutions that are really easy to accomplish, and then I celebrate the hell out of them every year that I won. So I am now eight years strong, having not done heroin.Jenny RyceWay to go! Dawn TaylorI know, I know, my New Year's resolution every year is to not do heroin. Jenny RyceWell done. Dawn TaylorHeroin free since 1993 or whatever. Joke about it. And I know that sounds ridiculous, but it's like this is the year. This is the year. I'm not going to do it right, and then I win. This is the year I'm not going to kill anyone. Right. My New Year's resolution is to wake up every single day. And you know what? I have succeeded 100% of the time. Jenny RyceAnd when you don't succeed, the question is, will you even know? Dawn TaylorNo. Right. So I will set these ridiculous New Year's resolutions. To make myself laugh. So that in like February when people start talking about like, so do you succeed on any of your New Year's resolutions this year? I'll be like, yeah, killing it on all of them. And people will look at me and be like, seriously? And I'm like, oh yeah, rocking it. Right. Sometimes people will then ask me like, what are your New Year's resolutions? And I'll tell them and they're like, oh, for real, but I think that we need to give ourselves way more grace. Um, I think, again, we need to look at, like, why are we setting this New Year's resolution? Like, what is it? What is the importance of it? Because let's be really honest, when we want something, we make it happen. When we want something, yeah, we get it.Right. If you really want those concert tickets, you will find a way. Like we will do everything in our power to make something happen. So if we're not ever managing to meet our goals for a year, if we're not managing to meet our infamous resolutions. Do we not have an emotional attachment to it? Does it actually hold no value to us? Do we not think it's important enough? Because I'm going to bet it's more of that than anything. Jenny RyceSo when you think about, you know, you were sharing, which I really valued too, is, you know, there's a deeper rooted reason why we're doing things that we want to shift in our lives, because at some point they were super valuable. They held a purpose and a meaning or like you say, protection. So if you if you are trying to shift something that's so deep rooted, do you have some suggestions on how people can move into positive action? Dawn TaylorSo, one thing is looking at where did it start? Right? What is the earliest time in your life that you remember that action or that behavior? And I know it's like a Tony Robbins statement, but it's like when the pain of staying the same becomes greater than the pain of the change. And it's really allowing yourself to look at that. We underestimate how damaging some of our actions and behaviors are. 8 or 9 years ago it's been a long time. I really should figure out the date. 8 or 9 years ago. I was super, super sick with fibro and my muscles were seizing. I was writhing on a couch all day. I was still somehow managing to work part time,  and I remember begging my husband and tears like sobbing and begging him to put a pillow over my face and kill me.  Because I was in such excruciating pain. And I didn't know what to do with it. I had no idea what to do with it. This was about, yeah, this is about 2015. And he sat there with me and he's like, Dawn, this isn't living. And I said, no one, I don't know how to function in this level of pain all day, every day. And he read a book. And it was talking about, like, all these dietary shifts and all these things. And he said to me, he's like, would you be willing? Because a friend had told me about it, but I couldn't even like, I was like, I can't even comprehend how to start. Like I need someone else to read the book and give me the cold notes. So he did. He audio, listened to this book, gave me the cold notes, and he's like, are you willing to make a massive shift in your diet? And I said,  whatever, whatever. I went sugar, gluten, dairy, alcohol free overnight, literally overnight. And it was.  And I think, no, we added the bulletproof coffee in, but so it was like a totally different way of drinking coffee. There were like  three meats, five veggies, and that was about it. And high fat, like, it was the most intense dietary shift ever. And very, very hard to shift that hard to. And people were like, how the heck did you pull that off overnight? Not only did I pull it off overnight, but I held it for six months without a single cheat. Like not even a slight nibble. Sniff. Nothing. Cheat. And I'm talking like I hosted Christmas with 15 people at my house and did baking and turkey and all those things, and then made my own food on the side. Like I held firm to this, and people often asked how. And I said, it goes back to the pain of staying the same is greater than the pain of the change. Right? And so even now, I can eat some dairy and I'm fine. It just makes me feel kind of gummy and gross sometimes, and it just doesn't sit super well. I can eat gluten if I really want to. It's not going to kill me or even harm me, but what it does is it makes me feel like I drank a bottle of NyQuil. So, I wanted to try sourdough because I've been doing all this research on how flowers work in your body and everyone's like, oh, if you have a gluten intolerance or allergy, like try sourdough because of how it's made and blah blah blah. I'm with all these flowers, so I tried it on the weekend. I just had two nights where I didn't sleep well. I had two days where I was weirdly gassy. TMI. But let's be honest, that's what was going on. I had two days where I just kind of hurt, like my inflammation level had gone way up from it. So my little aches and pains, right? Definitely reared their ugly head. Was it a big deal? No. Could I eat flour today? Yeah. But guess who started there Monday really freaking tired because I haven't slept properly for two days. Right? So when we allow

Why you would want to listen to this episode…From the outside looking in, Scientology is quite mysterious. It can’t help but pique any outsider’s interest in this mysterious phenomenon. Is it really as bad as the media says it is? For Katherine Spallino, an ex-Scientologist who was indoctrinated into the religion upon birth, the answer is a resounding yes. In this episode, Katherine shares with us what it was really like growing up in the world of Scientology, and how fortunate she is to have escaped, now living a life where she is able to make choices for herself and can truly be free.Who this forFor anyone who’s ever been curious about the inner workings of Scientology, our guest Katherine tells her harrowing experiences growing up and leaves no stone unturned. It’s an in-depth look at the world of Scientology behind closed doors as this episode serves as a way for anyone curious to finally get some answers. What really goes on for Scientologists and the lives they live? If you’ve ever wanted to find out then this episode is for you.About Dawn TaylorDawn Taylor is the professional ass-kicker, hope giver, life strategist, trauma specialist, and all-around badass. Dawn's journey into helping others heal began when she took her personal recovery from the trauma she experienced in her life into her own hands. While at times unconventional, Dawn’s strategic methods have helped hundreds heal from traumas such as issues related to infidelity,  overcoming addiction,  working through PTSD from sexual, emotional, and physical abuse, as well as helping cult survivors thrive. Dawn’s work has empowered entrepreneurs, stay-at-home moms, and CEOs alike to be superheroes in their own lives. Having completed thousands of hours of training from many professional programs, including the Robbins Madanes Training Institute, Dawn’s blunt honesty will challenge your thinking, broaden your awareness, and help you achieve the outstanding results you are worthy of.Connect with Dawn here at The Taylor Way: Consultation Call | Website | Facebook | Instagram | LinkedInGet to know Dawn on a deeper level through her book! Order HereP.S. I Made It, is a powerful story that grabs you through its lack of pretension and honesty. Every page reveals another layer of curious wonder at both Dawn’s life and the power of hope that moves within each of us. Dawn’s hope is that you use this book as a resource to deal with your struggles. Share it with someone who needs it. We all want to feel like someone understands what it’s like to suffer through something and – come out the other side. She describes her life as “horrifically beautiful and beautifully horrific. Guest BioKatherine grew up on a secluded ranch within the cadet org, the Church of Scientology’s Sea Org school for children. At a young age, Katherine began to journal about her day-to-day life, capturing the thoughts and experiences of a child coming of age in a cult. Katherine’s background offers the rare opportunity to tell the story of the hundreds of children who rarely saw their parents and were indoctrinated to become future Sea Org members. Katherine is no longer a Scientologist and lives in Minneapolis with her husband, happily raising three rambunctious boys.Guest Social LinksEmail - thebadcadet@gmail.comInstagram - https://instagram.com/thebadcadet?igshid=OGQ5ZDc2ODk2ZA%3D%3D&utm_source=qrFacebook - https://facebook.com/katherine.spallinoBook link - The Bad Cadet: Growing Up in the Church of Scientology's Sea Organizationhttps://www.amazon.com/dp/B0C1TCQ1KQ?ref_=cm_sw_r_mwn_dp_VS1P60F6NT3JH38G45CJ_1 Thanks for listening!Thanks so much for listening to our podcast! If you enjoyed this episode and think that others could benefit from listening, please share it using the social media buttons on this page. Do you have some feedback or questions about this episode? Leave a comment in the section below!Follow the podcastIf you want to receive new podcast episodes automatically, you can follow us on Apple Podcasts or in your favourite podcast app.Please leave us an Apple Podcasts reviewRatings and reviews from our listeners are extremely valuable to us and greatly appreciated. They help our podcast rank higher on Apple Podcasts, which exposes our show to more awesome listeners like you. If you have a minute, please leave an honest review.Views Expressed, Legal and Medical DisclaimerThis podcast (including any/all site pages, blog posts, blog comments, forums, videos, audio recordings, etc.) is not intended to replace the services of a physician, nor does it constitute a doctor-patient relationship. Information is provided for informational purposes only and is not a substitute for professional medical advice. You should not use the information on this podcast for diagnosing or treating a medical or health condition. If you have or suspect you have an urgent medical problem, promptly contact your professional healthcare provider. Any application of the recommendations in this podcast/website is at the listener/reader's discretion. The views and opinions expressed are those of guests and do not necessarily reflect the opinion or policy of Dawn Taylor, The Taylor Way and or its Associates. The before mentioned are not liable for any direct or indirect claim or loss. TranscriptDawn TaylorI am your host, Dawn Taylor. And oh my goodness, are we going to have an amazing conversation today. Today we are talking to Katherine Spino. What is the topic? Oh, I don't know, maybe Scientology. So before we get started, I want you to know that Katherine is safe. We did have a conversation prior to this recording to make sure, because we've all seen the stuff on the TV and the news and the media and the celebrities on how they can go after you and harm you and all of that fun. And she is safe. So just we're going to put that out there right away. But we're going to dive in. We're going to dive into what her childhood was like being raised in the Sea Org. What should it do to get out all of the things? So yeah, without further ado, I introduce you to the most amazing powerhouse and positive human. Katherine, welcome to the show, Katherine. Katherine SpallinoHi. Thanks so much for having me. Um, love your words. It's funny because I've been reading your book and it's like, I feel like there's so many similarities in us. Like, we're both like, we're, you know, go getters, I guess. So, like, excited to talk to you. And we could delve into, I mean we have different lives that have happened to us, but like how you can overcome it or come through it and still be a strong, generally happy person, Dawn TaylorRight? Forgive Catherine's audio. She has a little bit of some congestion going on, so bear with it guys because this conversation, so Catherine wrote a book about her early years of escaping Sea Org. So for anyone who doesn't know what is Sea Org? Katherine SpallinoSo this is the inner circle of Scientology. It's like you could picture, like, a priest or nun. It's like, well, they actually work for the Church of Scientology. They're not just parishioners. And my parents were working. They signed what's called a billion year contract. So, a billion years of their lives to work for the Sea Org. And in doing so, they dedicated my life. I was a baby born into the Sea Org, to work for the Church of Scientology. So from the time I was a baby, I was like, “Yep, this is what I'm doing.” Or, like, six years old. I could actually remember these memories of knowing I'm going to join the Sea Org. This is what I'll be doing. So that's the Sea Org basically is run military-style kind of. And there's a commanding officer and there's, everybody has jobs and they have to do the jobs all relate to distributing Scientology to the world or to the public. And my parents, because I was in a Sea Org, they sent me away by the time I was eight years old to a boarding school that was only for sea children to raise these children to be future members. So we're like little mini-soldiers, and they consider children, adults in small bodies. So I wasn't really treated like a child. Dawn TaylorBefore that, you were even sent away to the ranch, so for anyone listening, the link to her book is in the show notes, contact, whatever. Like it's all in the show notes. You guys need to read this book. It's intense and it's wild. So, let's break down a little bit of like, what that was like. So even prior to that you were really like, so going out to the ranch, which is the school, you were even still like, you lived on a different floor than your parents in different buildings. So you hadn't been sent away yet, but you were already very divided from your family at a very young age, like, weren't you six? Katherine SpallinoYeah. So the book is called The Bag. Didn't even say that. Sorry. It follows me because I'm what's considered a cadet. As somebody who joined the Sea Org. By the time I'm six years old. I'm not quite a cadet yet, but I am separated from my parents and live in a dorm with other girls and have a dorm mom who's not my mom. And ironically, my mom is a dorm mom for other kids, not for me. So I would just see her in passing. And that is until I'm eight years old. And I would see my parents only on Sunday mornings for a few hours when they had what's called CSP time, which is like cleaning your room time, do your laundry, and also hang out with your child while you're doing these things. It's not like you would go out to breakfast together or anything, so sometimes you would get ice cream after laundry. That was a treat, you know? But by the time I'm eight years old, I get an actually, to be honest, in the book you find out I'm actually nine years old, but I thought I was eight. Like, that's how little connection I had about my life. And I get sent to the school that's an hour from Los Angeles, north in the mountains, and I'm just with other children, and we all have jobs. And like, this is how we are operating like little mini members at this school that's called the Canyon Oaks. it's like half school, half work. Like I'm also working out on the fields or I'm working in the galley cooking food for the other cadets, um, things of that nature. Dawn TaylorOh, it was like a full job. Like you're gone away from your family. And one of the things that, one of the statements you made at one point in the book was talking about how, like, you just, like, craved this, like even seeing your mom across the room. And having that acknowledgement of like, even hoping to catch her eye. And you like, lived for that. You lived for those moments. But then when you go out to the ranch, you also got paid and you found out that you no longer got a paycheck because you didn't even have, like, you didn't have any of the government ID saying that you would ever even been born. Parents had never gotten that. So you then worked forever, you know, with no money, like you had no money, yet expected to act like an adult. And, you know, not having underwear or shoes or any of those things and nobody really caring. Katherine SpallinoYeah. As an adult. I look back, I'm like, how is nobody like, you know. Hey, here's some shoes for you. Hey, let me get you this. Hey, you're not getting paid. So instead, we'll provide you with this. But instead, I was just, like, left to my own devices and in my journals, which I use to write my book. You could see this, like, shame I have for myself. Or I'm, like, embarrassed. But I have to act like I don't care that I don't have shoes and I can't afford to buy underwear. Like, I feel like it's my responsibility. I don't feel like it's anybody else's. Even though I was nine, ten, 11 years old. And it's very strange to look back on, um, for sure. Dawn TaylorWell, and especially now that you're a parent, right? Like, you're out of it and you're a parent. That must be just wild to look at and look at your own children and think, how, how did that come to be? So when, let's backtrack a ways, right? When did your parents join Scientology?Katherine Spallino  My mom was like I would say, early 30s and my dad a little bit older than that. And they met in New York City. So, she ran into somebody on the subway who she'd gone to high school with, who was into Scientology. And they're like, this is amazing. You gotta check it out. And my mom grew up in a very Pentecostal household, super strict. She had to wear, like, long skirts. I find this all out later when I'm in my 20s, but this because I wanted to understand why she found Scientology and she was so restricted. And she she said when she found Scientology. She felt like it. One of the things they told you is freedom. Or like knowing yourself or freedom of truth. It's just like what they like, tell you all the time. Like, you know what? You know, it's all about empowerment. And then later on you find out that it's not really the case. But for her, she felt like that was like her salvation in a way like this. She could finally find independence. And my dad, I actually don't know. He was like, I've lost close to my dad, so I just tended to not have these conversations. Dawn TaylorYour dad was gone, like literally across the tree from you the majority of your childhood. He was in Florida and you were in California. Katherine SpallinoYeah. And so at least I got to see my mom, like, a lot till I was like eight like or a lot as an in passing. And then I do know from talking with her, also my 20s, that she didn't nurse me for the first 12 weeks. So I think that, like, skin to skin care probably also really bonded us because I have still to this day, a lot of love for my mom. Um, yeah. And we could talk about what's happening with my parents currently if you want to. Or we could come to that later. Dawn TaylorOh, we'll come back to that. So growing up as a cadet. You're this little army girl, right? Your rebelliousness. It started to show up. It started to show up fairly young. From the anger, the outbursts, the randomly running away one day and somebody bringing you back. At what age? Some about two thirds of the way through your book. At what age did you start to go, hey, wait a second. This isn't okay. How did you come to that? Katherine SpallinoYeah, I was an avid reader and would read all the time, and I would be like, wait, they don't have to go work in the fields, or they get to see their parents every day. Like these comparisons, like Ride Sweet Valley High or even Goosebumps or, you know, all of them have a backdrop of a family. Baby-Sitters club. I was reading all of these books and I was like, that's kind of unfair. You know, like, I want to be able to just like, be able to hang out with my family and they do things for me, or they're taking me to soccer or things like that, because I didn't even have, like, sports, you know, like it was just P.E. and I was really just do whatever you want at sometimes we go like rollerblading or we did have horses, so we would go horseback riding. You got to, like, sign up ahead of time because it was only like four rideable horses, 200 kids. So, it's not like you could do that all the time. Um, so it was very these little, like, moments when I would be reading and I'm like, oh, that looks more fun, or that kind of want to do that. But then I also have this big goal, because what I've taught for the time of a child is like, I love Ron Hubbard, who's the creator of Scientology. And he's telling me all the time and everything I'm reading and everything I'm hearing from the grownups around me that we're saving the world like our little group of kids, like we're going to be the executives in the Sea Org of Scientology, and we're going to save the world. So it's like, I'm like, oh, bummer. Like, I can't do these fun things that people do in books because, you know, I got to save the world. So it's like the soft talk where like, every time I want to just like break out and go have fun and like, go, I'm like, maybe I could go to a regular high school. Maybe I could try to do this. And then it's and then like, somehow get talked myself back into staying or someone says something to me like, hey, let's get you some auditing, which is what's the Scientology processing to like, help you be better, be a better cadet? I'm like, oh yeah, I'm not a good cadet. I always get in trouble. Maybe this is the reason. And then it turns out I don't like that. But then there's like another distraction where they're like, oh, all of you guys are getting to get to go now, actually join the Sea Org. I'm like, oh, it's finally happening. Maybe I'll really like being in the Sea Org to this constant like up and down of self- regulation or like my true self wants to come out and then, like, push myself back down to try to stay. And I'm thinking that there's something wrong with me that I keep wanting to leave, you know? Dawn TaylorAt the core of you. You knew. So we're going to pause on the how you finally got out in one piece. What is the core? So for someone listening, I know, you know, looking from the outside in, someone's like, for real. Did you actually think you were going to save the world? Like, how do people actually believe this stuff or think these things or like, buy into that, right? Like, how have you been so conditioned to buy into that, to not know that it's wrong or not know that it's not okay to have someone take your kids away or not know that, right? Like, even if you're of the leaders to the children at the ranch was not appropriate. It wasn't okay. It wasn't good behavior. Do you know what I mean? Like, yeah. What are the core beliefs of Scientology? Where did it show up? When did it show up like some of that? So people can understand that more and what the conditioning process even looks like? Katherine SpallinoYeah. So from the time I'm like a baby, it's like I've been always going once a week to this place called the Ron Hubbard Life Exhibition, and it's in Hollywood Boulevard. You could check it out. And it's just this big exhibition about the man who invented Scientology. So from the time I'm a baby, think of this man like a god. They don't call him that. But he's done so many things. He's incredible. So everything he says is true. No matter what. You can never invalidate what he says. If you do, there's something you don't understand. So that's like a really core part of me from the time I'm a child. Like, this person knows everything and can say, like, make the world a better place. It's like always what the goal is. And then for my parents, I don't see them, but in my mind I'm like, oh, because they're trying to save the world. Like my dad was an OT three supervisor and OT three, there's like all these levels that Scientology has and OT three is like on the top level. So I know he's teaching, like, amazing things. Now. It turns out OT three is about when the aliens get introduced in Scientology's doctrine. But. you don't know this when you're like really little. So when I was little, I didn't know anything about aliens. Most people I knew in Scientology, even growing up when we were like, late teens, don't know anything about the aliens because it's top secret. So, when that stuff like the South Park um, TV show comes out where they're like making fun of the aliens, we're like, they just made that up. Like, that's not at all part of Scientology. And I didn't know it was like, that's, we are only being told certain information from the time, our young age and that that is what the technology we have that Albert Hubbard invented about. It's like a lot of self-help stuff at the beginning, which do make sense, like communication and how to, what to do if you do something wrong, how to fix your, like, make up amends. Things like that are basic common life things that he wrote out. But then so, you believe all that stuff. But then on top of it, they begin to layer on the counseling and the auditing and all that indoctrination begins to follow. So, even though you're like, how could my parents just send me away from the time they first begin? It's just like basic level learning of Scientology, but as they get more into it, they're more and more, like, told, like, this is the salvation right of earth. And you've lived. They believe in reincarnation. You live so many lives. Like, can you dedicate all of your lives to save Earth now? Like, it's such a big thing to be a part of, to be proud of and then like, dedicate your own child to it as well. Thinking to my mom and she thinks I'm getting sent to a safe space. She grew up in the poor area of New York City, so she knows I'm not gonna be around gangs that are on drugs and she knows I'll be growing up in Scientology, which is like the most amazing, to her, technology. And she never got to the OT three stuff. Like to this day, she still doesn't know about the aliens. You know, so it's like, it's wild that you would be like, but why don't they progress up the bridge to know that stuff? It's like they, they, they kind of just stay in this, like, lower level part of Scientology. And then they're just enforcing getting other people to Scientology. And then some people get up to those higher levels and then maybe they go, it's too late now. Like now I have to believe in aliens, I don't know. And there must be something that happens. Dawn TaylorSo, it's interesting. It's very calculated. Katherine SpallinoYeah. It's like very intentional.Dawn Taylorincredibly intentional, where it's like we're going to start with like one degree of this and then two degrees and three degrees. Oh, you're bought in enough. We bet we could just, like, convince you of a little bit more and a little bit more and a little bit more and a little bit more until you're fully believing in aliens. Katherine SpallinoAnd to be clear, like all these people in this, they believe everything they're doing is a good thing. Like they don't, there's not, like, somebody like even David Miscavige, the leader of Scientology, who's like a total whack job. Like if you read about all the stuff he does, he probably totally believes everything and probably is now skewed it in his mind where he's like the leader, like the Ron Hubbard of it, because Alan Hubbard died in the 80s and David Miscavige did a crazy coup and everything that the CIA members don't really know about. But yeah, he believes that Scientology, he probably actually truly believes that Scientology is like everyone's salvation. It's just, he's doing it as a pyramid scheme where they're like raising all this money and all that money goes towards either lawyers to sue people who are attacking Scientology or for buying land. There's so many churches, Scientology around in every major city, almost in the world. It's wild. It's like the Catholic Church or something, like they're putting their money into that. Um, but like my parents think when they're doing their work, my mom was a letter registrar in the end, like the last bit when I was in the Sea Org. And that's just writing letters to parishioners telling them. She just does that all day. Imagine that. Just every day, seven days a week, writing letters barely get time off, but your brain is going to just start being like, all like a loop, right? Like if you, like, have nothing to challenge you or stimulate you, you're going to just be like, I think this is how they keep these letter writers. They're just like working really hard, long hours, not a lot of time off. So not a lot of time to think and really think about what you're doing is my thought for why some people stay in the Sea for so long, because it's not a good existence. It's very, like, dull and boring and you get yelled at a lot and a lot of pressure to sell products of Scientology and so on. Dawn TaylorOkay. How do I say this? Sorry, need to think about that for a second. There's so much. like, I could talk to you about this all day. And for anyone in my inner circle, you know that I am, like, weirdly obsessed with cults and the idea and the beliefs and how they do it and how we just, like, lose ourselves in them. Right? So you're at the ranch? Katherine SpallinoYes. Dawn TaylorYou get the call to now you get to move up to be like the full adult as part of this, at 14 years old.Katherine SpallinoYes. I've done certain qualifications called the A, B and C, which are low level eighth grade reading, math and writing. Like I wrote a long essay that was like 100 words. I could do eighth grade math and I could do, I think it was really like sixth grade math, to be honest. And then the reading was like vocabulary, eighth grade vocabulary words. And that's enough. I'm ready to be an adult.Dawn TaylorWhich is wild, but also keep in mind like you're like, everyone is working for them. They're barely paying you, right? So like, nobody has money. Nobody has to even think about doing anything. And you literally are like living in their properties, living in their spaces, being fed by them, everything. There is a weird safety like that does make sense to my brain in some ways. Katherine SpallinoYeah. So for some people it's very safe. Yeah, everything's taken care of. You also don't make decisions. Everything you want to do, you have to ask somebody. So there's something if you're somebody who doesn't like to make decisions and has anxiety, maybe it's nice to just always have to request permission for things or be told what to do. I don't like that as a person. Like innately. Told what to do all the time really bothered me. And it always seemed like this is like non-sequitur. Why are you telling me to do this? Like, that was my instinct. Dawn TaylorOh, yeah. You'd have, like, attacks and like, lose it and swearing at them and stuff and getting in trouble and then having to be ignored and shunned from the people as part of the punishment. Right? Oh, no. Guys, you literally just have to read this book because there's no way we could fit all of this into an hour or even like five hours, right? So at 14, where did you go?Katherine Spallino So, at 14 years old, I leave the ranch that get sent to this. seeing this big blue building with the Scientology cross on the internet. That's where I was and that's where my parents lived. And that and so I go there and get put on what's called a boot camp but it's called the Estates project for us. And now I'm doing even more labor. Have to run everywhere and like, can't even get dessert after dinner because I have to get through this program. Like, so this is like a few month program where I'm just studying some Scientology courses. Some of them have already done before, before I could officially join the Sea Org. And of course, when I'm doing that, I'm like, oh, this is just like the cadet org, but worse in a way, because at least at the cadet org, we would sometimes go to the beach here and there. If they would like, we would have fun moments. Now they're stripping even more of the fun. So eventually I start acting out and I get sent back to the ranch. So this is like, you'll follow me on the journey in my book because there's so much, like back and forth with me as a child. Try to figure myself out, and they're trying to put me like a circle into a square or a square to a circle, and it's just not working. Dawn TaylorOh, like not working at all. So this goes back and forth and back and forth and back and forth in the middle of this. So you also have siblings 1.1s that are part of this that you're never really seeing. And they're on their own journeys within this. So at what point did you get out of it? Because there's multiple things like you get out of the Sea Org, but then you had to actually leave Scientology, which are two very different things. So how did you end up and at what point did you finally go like, no, no, no, I have to get out of this. Katherine SpallinoUm, so in the Sea Org, if you read the book, you're going to follow me as I like, keep going. In that same journey I'm talking about where, like, I'm trying to be good. I'm trying to be what's called in-ethics. There's a lot of words in Scientology that are totally made up. They have a big technical dictionary, and one of them in-ethics is being good and like listening and following direction. And I'm constantly being in-ethics, that being in-ethics. And it's eventually I'm just like I need to like. So, I'm also told the outside world is really bad. Everybody does drugs. They're promiscuous, like I'm told. Like where we are is safe and where out there as bad. But eventually a part of me is going to win out where I just want to have fun, believe it or not. Like, it's just like, I need to go have a life like, this is not a life here. And I have to figure out where am I going to stay, who will like, because my parents are in the Sea Org and I barely know their extended family. So how is that going to work? What will it be like? And I'm determined. Like I could do it. I won't be promiscuous. I won't take drugs. I could go have a life and still be a great Scientologist and donate all my money to Scientology. Like, I literally thought that was a good thing to do is like, give away my money to sign algae. And so when I'm in the real world, I experienced this culture shock, which actually does give you a second book called The Bad Scientologist, where I'm trying to be a Scientologist in the real world, and it's watching me sort through the actual life world and what Scientology says is the world, and having to sort that out and decide, wait, what is actually true? And luckily I have ,like, the brains to like, I don't know, you have to question things. And a lot of people that I grew up with, all of my friends, the half of them are still in the Sea Org, are still cadets, but most are 40 years old. They cannot have children in this year because that was another push for me to leave. I wanted to have kids and I do have kids, so I have three kids. Yay for me. I have a husband. I have a really happy life outside of it. So I got to find what I actually wanted, which was to go create a life for myself, be able to make my own choices, and have a husband and children. But how do I get there? It's because I have perseverance. I'm curious and I ask questions and don't just accept when people are like, this is the way it is. And I actually had something happen though, in the church where they made it even easier for me to leave because one of my brothers got really sick and they said, they pull me into the church and they're like, hey, you need to come into the church. I'm like, oh yeah, I'm going to come. You guys going to see how good I am, I'm only 20 years old. I have been working at the school that's affiliated with Scientology called Delphi Academy. I'm a teacher there. Like, you guys are going to be so impressed by me. And instead they sit me down and they tell me, your family cannot talk to you anymore. Your mom, your dad and your brother and your sister who are still in there because Philip is getting sick and we know you're the cause. And I'm like, what? Yes, this literally happened because there was something called the PTS person, which is a potential trouble source and a Suppressive Person. Um, my brother was getting sick, so that's a trouble source. Who's suppressing him? It's got to be a sister who left the Sea Org. Even though I was doing nothing wrong, saying nothing negative about it, I still was a Scientologist, and I believed in Scientology. I just wasn't really practicing it because I was having fun living my life. But at least I worked at a school that was doing Scientology studies and stuff. So in my mind, I couldn't, like, it still doesn't make sense. They screwed themselves over just with their own high horse. Like just horrible way of behaving where you just blame a random person for somebody being sick. Um, so then my parents can talk to you, me and my brother. And it was a few months of that. And meanwhile I met my husband, Ryan, boyfriend at the time, but he is not a Scientologist, and I was, he was able to be like, hey, you're not your normal like happy go lucky stuff. Like what, is something going on? You could talk to me about it. And having someone I could actually talk to and not worry about. So something else that happens in Scientology I know there's so much to unwrap is if you say something negative about Scientology, you will get written up like Big Brother, like 1984, George Orwell's novel. So I couldn't talk about what was going on with my parents, and my brother couldn't see me anymore. I had to hold in this pain because I didn't want to get written up. I also felt like maybe I did do something wrong, even though I knew I didn't, and my husband, boyfriend at the time was just like, you could tell me, I'll never be a Scientologist. Nothing to do with your religion. Just personally. I'm a Christian. It's not for me. And I was like, oh good. Like I won't ruin his chance for total freedom. And so I was able to talk to him and, like, unload everything and just hearing myself say everything out loud that my parents and my brother couldn't talk to me because Scientology was saying I was creating a sickness and my brother’s cancer was still actually, I still took a while. But saying it out helped me begin that process. And from there, I was able to absorb other moments in Scientology that we're not okay and how money hungry it is. And then I start to go on the internet because they tell you not to go on the internet, because everything on the internet is false. Media is always wrong. So, that's a sign for anybody who's in a cult. If that person or a group is telling you everybody else is wrong, they have the answer only you're probably in a relationship or in a group that is trying to control what you're learning. And so I began to go on the internet. I began to read books, watch documentaries. Highly recommend Going Clear on HBO or Leah Remini show The Aftermath. Two of my best friends were on that show, but that was, like, The Aftermath was way down the road. But Going Clear came out around then, and Janet Reitman's Inside Scientology. So good. So that was how I got myself out, was getting information myself. Yeah.28:40So. You're a kid with no access to family, no access to anything. Currently, to this day, you don't have access to your parents because really, they're owned by the church. Katherine SpallinoYeah, well, they think that I'm a suppressive person, so they don't want to talk to me anymore, which is so sad. So I actually managed to reach them because I've been doing interviews on there's a group called SPTV on YouTube. If anybody wants to hear more, if they're more visual, and that's how they like to learn more about Scientology, that's a great resource to go to. And Aaron Smith Levin was kind of like the leader from that. He was on The Aftermath show, Leah Remini, so I was on an interview with him and somebody he knew who had just rescued their mom from the Sea Org. I knew that mom who knew my parents and knew where they were, so I didn't know where they were. And so she gave him their number for that place because I had no phone number. Like, I couldn't even contact them. So, then I was able to call my parents and they acted like everything was completely normal. So, they did come back and contact me when my brother was sick. And then they left me again. They stopped talking to me again when one of my best friend was on Leah Remini show, so I'd been six years from that point. So they had met my twins. I had baby twins in that time. I had a three year old and they would come visit every year. And then after that, boom, it's just stopped after Leah Remini show. So, this was the first time a few months ago, and I talked to my parents and I told them, I love you guys. Like there's no reason for you to not see me. We could disagree on things. You could do Scientology and I would still love you. Come visit. And my book had not come out yet, and they were just like, oh, my book had come out when I talked to them. Sorry, because this was the interviews and my mom's like, yeah, I just have to talk to my ethics officer. So like, that's the control. Like, her brain's like, I can't just go see my daughter. Like, I have to make sure it's allowed. And then she said, are you still seeing your friend Marion, who was on the show? Marion Francis? And I'm like. Why does it matter? Like she's my best friend. Why would I cut her out? She's allowed to speak her truth. Like, please be my mom again, you know? And unfortunately, the next day, like, I tried to call again, the phone line was disconnected and now I can't get through to them. I'm like, oh my gosh. It's just sad because, like, they're just, they're in the 70s now. Like, let them go. Let them see their family. There's no reason to do this except for I'm evil. But you already said I was evil before I'd even done anything. Like, now I have this book out. Now, I'm speaking out on Scientology. Scientology is like asking me to do it, right. It's like I wasn't even going to do all this stuff. And then you take my parents away. Dawn TaylorYou're like, and now watch me pay you back. Katherine SpallinoYeah, like I was. I had this book burning percolating for years since I was 20, 21 when I was coming out of Scientology. But I was like, I can't publish it because I don't want to lose my parents. I know they would take my parents from me. And this book is not an attack on Scientology, right? It's just about me growing up. You just add your reading, the reader knows what it's like, what a child needs to grow up. And you see that I don't have that, but I don't have to tell the reader that. So it's not an attack on Scientology. So I was but still yeah, I could not write this book because my parents didn't want to lose them. And then I lost them anyway, because my best friend was on this show and I knew about it, and I didn't write a report about it. And they were like, you are on her side, so we can no longer talk to you. Like, that's just where they jump to. Dawn TaylorJust wild. Just like the deeper control, the better. Katherine SpallinoYeah. And it's sad because so many of my cadet friends that I grew up with have lost their parents over the dumbest, silliest things like that. Like one of my friends wrote, wow, look at how many, how much Scientology pays ads for the Super Bowl. Interesting. And again, it's, like, totally like, does it really say like this is good or bad? You know, and like so many people, Scientologist friends like,

Why you would want to listen to this episode…Burnout is a thing that happens to all of us and it can happen at any time. A problem we all face is the difficulty that goes into identifying this negativity in our lives. In this episode, Dawn and her guest Ben Kraker discuss the possibilities from wherein burnout could spring from - such as being at work, serving the community or even with the people you’re with at home. From that burnout, Dawn and Ben bring some steps and suggestions to turn it into a place of contentment where we can focus on what matters and be grateful for the things that truly mean the most to usWho this forFor those of you who have felt the sting of burnout before or are experiencing such a rut now, know that you’re not alone and that this episode is for you. It’s an occurrence that happens to people from all walks of life and this episode is an acknowledgment that burnout doesn’t have to last forever. About Dawn TaylorDawn Taylor is the professional ass-kicker, hope giver, life strategist, trauma specialist, and all-around badass. Dawn's journey into helping others heal began when she took her personal recovery from the trauma she experienced in her life into her own hands. While at times unconventional, Dawn’s strategic methods have helped hundreds heal from traumas such as issues related to infidelity,  overcoming addiction,  working through PTSD from sexual, emotional, and physical abuse, as well as helping cult survivors thrive. Dawn’s work has empowered entrepreneurs, stay-at-home moms, and CEOs alike to be superheroes in their own lives. Having completed thousands of hours of training from many professional programs, including the Robbins Madanes Training Institute, Dawn’s blunt honesty will challenge your thinking, broaden your awareness, and help you achieve the outstanding results you are worthy of.Connect with Dawn here at The Taylor Way: Consultation Call | Website | Facebook | Instagram | LinkedInGet to know Dawn on a deeper level through her book! Order HereP.S. I Made It, is a powerful story that grabs you through its lack of pretension and honesty. Every page reveals another layer of curious wonder at both Dawn’s life and the power of hope that moves within each of us. Dawn’s hope is that you use this book as a resource to deal with your struggles. Share it with someone who needs it. We all want to feel like someone understands what it’s like to suffer through something and – come out the other side. She describes her life as “horrifically beautiful and beautifully horrific. Guest BioBen Kraker serves on the leadership team of a diverse urban church that places a strong emphasis on mental health, addiction recovery, and the cultivation of robust community relationships. During the workweek, Ben fulfills his role as a Customer Success Manager at a locally-owned IT company, where he applies his professional expertise to support several prominent nonprofit accounts in the region. For the past decade, Ben and his family have proudly called Grand Rapids their home, embodying the city’s spirit of growth and rejuvenation. Ben’s personal journey revolves around self-discovery and overcoming his past, and he passionately advocates for mental health and self-worth. With 17 years of marriage to Andi, they epitomize enduring love and commitment while raising two teenagers they adopted from the foster care system.Guest Social LinksPodcast - Real Men Hug  https://www.realmenhug.com/ Redefining the narrative of masculinityFacebook - facebook.com/benkrakerInstagram - @benokay Thanks for listening!Thanks so much for listening to our podcast! If you enjoyed this episode and think that others could benefit from listening, please share it using the social media buttons on this page. Do you have some feedback or questions about this episode? Leave a comment in the section below!Follow the podcastIf you want to receive new podcast episodes automatically, you can follow us on Apple Podcasts or in your favourite podcast app.Please leave us an Apple Podcasts reviewRatings and reviews from our listeners are extremely valuable to us and greatly appreciated. They help our podcast rank higher on Apple Podcasts, which exposes our show to more awesome listeners like you. If you have a minute, please leave an honest review.Views Expressed, Legal and Medical DisclaimerThis podcast (including any/all site pages, blog posts, blog comments, forums, videos, audio recordings, etc.) is not intended to replace the services of a physician, nor does it constitute a doctor-patient relationship. Information is provided for informational purposes only and is not a substitute for professional medical advice. You should not use the information on this podcast for diagnosing or treating a medical or health condition. If you have or suspect you have an urgent medical problem, promptly contact your professional healthcare provider. Any application of the recommendations in this podcast/website is at the listener/reader's discretion. The views and opinions expressed are those of guests and do not necessarily reflect the opinion or policy of Dawn Taylor, The Taylor Way and or its Associates. The before mentioned are not liable for any direct or indirect claim or loss. Dawn TaylorI am your host, Dawn Taylor. And today we are talking to the infamous Ben. Okay, I don't know what makes him infamous, but that's just what we're going to call him today. Today's topic is from burnout to content. And I have to say, I'm so excited that I'm talking to a man about this today. Because women, this is a big topic these days, is talking about burnout and talking about trying to find this infamous balance that I think is garbage, but the infamous balance and trying to get to all those places. But today we're going to be talking to Ben about it. Before we get started, I want to tell you a little bit about your guests, our guest, so you can be as excited as I am. Ben, who are you? He is a leader of, well, he's on a leadership team of a diverse urban church. The place is a very strong emphasis on mental health, addiction recovery and the cultivation of robust community relationship. During the work week. He is the customer service manager of a locally owned company, where he applies his professional expertise to support several prominent nonprofit accounts in the region. For the past decade, him and his wife have proudly lived in Grand Rapids, where their home is, embodying the city's spirit of growth and rejuvenation. Ben's personal journey revolves around self-discovery overcoming his past. He is an advocate for mental health and self-worth, and with 17 years of marriage to Andy, the epitomize enduring love and commitment while raising two teenagers they adopted from the foster system. This could be part of maybe why he is so legendary and amazing and has such an incredible heart. Welcome to the show, Ben.Ben KrakerThank you. Dawn. It is great to be here.Dawn TaylorI am so excited you arehere. So just a little bit of backstory. I was on one of Ben's podcasts quite a few years ago already, three years now. Yeah, it's been a while and I had such a great time with him and Mike and their podcast that they were doing -  High Tech Ease. Right?Ben KrakerIt was Threads.Dawn TaylorOh, sorry. Threads. Wrong one. Whoops. Okay, I should know better. And we had such an amazing conversation. And so when I saw your application come through to talk today I was very excited about this. So tell us a little bit about what you wish people were talking about.Ben KrakerI wish that people, and more specifically men, we're willing to have the conversations about why they feel so pressured to do the things that they're doing, and to throw themselves in with such a huge level of involvement as if they have something to prove. I just see, you know, especially with men, it's the career that's usually the focus. And everything else takes a backseat to their career. You know, maybe for some, it's sports or it could be any different thing. But, people and men more specifically typically have something that they give all of themselves to. And I just look at that and I wonder, is that really healthy? Is that necessary? Do we need to be giving 110% of us all the time to all these things, and especially in the church context? One of the primary messages that I hear from the Holy Spirit as I read the Bible is "Come to me, and I will give you rest. Be still and know that I am God." And we read in Exodus, "You only need to be still because the Lord will fight for you." So, where do we come up with this crazy idea that we have to do all the things and be all the things to all the people? It's just, it's crazy and it's not worth losing your life to.Dawn TaylorWow. So multiple thoughts on this. Number one is, having grown up in the church and being a churchgoer myself, right? They always say and being active in nonprofits and charitable organizations and stuff, they always say that the 20 carry the 80 right. 20% of people will always do the work for the other 80%. And I often have looked back at that and thought, to put it really bluntly, like, this is bullshit. Like, what is going on? Why is this the way it is? And and I see it in that way too. So can you give us some examples of. Of what you're talking about. Like when it comes to like sports, when you're talking about all these things, it is definitely a thing. It is definitely a thing when you say that, right? That people will become obsessed. It's an obsession with something. Give me some examples of this, even from your own life, if you don't mind.Ben KrakerYeah, well, I'm not much of a sports fan. However, I get into things like cycling or kayaking and there was a summer where I don't even know why, but I made a goal that I was going to bike 800 miles that summer, and I would not allow myself to fail like, hell or high water. I was going to get 800 miles in and to this day, I'm not entirely sure why. Ihink maybe I was after a little bit of, if I'm honest, attention and like, kudos from people for doing a really hard thing. But what I've learned is that instead of doing these crazy things, I can just ask for what I need. And that's been a life changer. So that comes to mind. And then I also mentioned work. This was more applicable when I was in full time ministry. I just felt like 40 hours wasn't a thing. Like I felt like my role in life was to do ministry. 24, seven and maybe 40 of those hours happened in the church context, but it felt like ministry was my job and like my calling. So, I need to be doing that all the time. Like there's no room for me to get what I need or to rest or to slow down. Um, just this mentality of like, that's what being on fire for the Lord is, is constantly doing all the things and and yet missing out on those very foundational invitations from God that I mentioned that are throughout the entire scripture.Dawn TaylorSo, secular or non secular, right. So, the audience but the audience that's not that aren't faith-based. Don't you stuff. You're no different. You're no different whether you're in the church or not.Ben KrakerI Left the full time ministry and work in the corporate world now. So there's definitely a lot of tie-ins. It's not an either or here. I think in the church context it's just a little bit more nuanced.Dawn TaylorOh, but is it? I think like the minute you said the word calling. Just like, how much is that? Like, I have a mission. I have a calling, I have, I was just gone for a few days. I take off every quarter for a few days and just kind of run away and breathe.Ben KrakerIt's awesome.Dawn TaylorAnd one of the things that really hit me on this last one was this urgency to be busy, right. And everyone's talking about is this whole balancing in the burnout and everything else. And one thing that's come to me lately is like, I love working. I love it. Do I feel called to be doing what I'm doing as a trauma specialist? 100%. Do I think that it is a gift I've been given? 100%. Do I think that I am making a difference in this world? Absolutely, right? Like, I love what I do, but I also have no issues with taking time off. I struggle to stop working because I actually genuinely like working. But I also know, like when I have to stop client working or to have a break. And there is a difference and. I was scrolling social media one day, and I'm literally sitting in a garden shed in Portland. Another story living in someone's mini house.Ben KrakerPardon?Dawn TaylorPortland, Oregon.Ben KrakerYeah. Oh, fantastic. I used to live there.Dawn TaylorOh, crazy. Yeah. So I was sitting there and I was scrolling social media and I saw these posts. I'm like, if you really want to get ahead and you really want to reach your calling, and you really wanted this and you really wanted that, and not faith-based people, just very secular, popular people of the world. Right? Because this wording spreads everywhere, you know, turn off Netflix and turn on a podcast, stop reading garbage and read a business book like you should always be in grow mode. And. I don't know if it's because I'm kind of a defiant toddler at heart. Anyone who knows me in my inner circle knows that about me. I am very much a defiant toddler at heart still. There was a piece of me that sat there and immediately felt shame for the fact that I had just binged too much Netflix that day. And I had to really stop myself and be like, "Where did that shame just come from?"Ben KrakerRight.Dawn TaylorAnd it wasn't guilt. It wasn't guilt that I had, like, done something wrong or I had wasted time or any of that. It was shame. It was full on. I am a bad person and I made a bad choice. And it was. I sat there and I was like, whew, there's some big feels coming up right now around this. And I love when those feels happen. I know most people hide from them and try to mask them. I always look at them to think like, "Wow, what is this? Where is this coming from?" And if anyone's listening to this podcast for a while, you know my line that I use all the time, it's like no judgment, just curiosity. And I realized that it was so many of these people that I was following because yes, they're motivational and yes, they're successful and yes, they're super wealthy and yes, they're all of these things and they're doing amazing work. But there was a shame attached to me not doing the same. And I was talking to my husband about it and he's like, "We need rest." Like mentally, emotionally, physically, spiritually. He's like, "We need rest." And he's like, "Rest is having a nap. Rest is watching too much Netflix. Rest is drawing a map of the top ten waterfalls in the Oregon area, and going on a road trip for a day, right, which I did."Ben KrakerYou get to the coast? The  ocean?Dawn TaylorI did. I went to Canon Beach like I did. I went to Tillamook. Just eat cheese samples. Right. Like I did those things. But it was interesting, this weird feeling of shame attached to it. Yet when I look around right now, the conversations I've had even in the last few days with people, so many people are burnt out right now. So many people are burning out right now. So many people have a ridiculous level of fatigue in their world. And whether it's collective trauma at everything that's going on in the world, or it's the fact that we're just all so freaking burnt out because we're working too hard and giving too much. I do think that that's something that we need to look at as a society is - Can I? Can I go at 75% and still thrive?Ben KrakerAbsolutely. I think that's very possible. But if you were to ask Ben ten years ago, I would have laughed at that and said, "No, you need to give not only 100%, but you need to find some extra in your reserves and give 110%, because that's what you do if you're passionate about something." So, I think somehow we've twisted passion to involve like a certain quantity of something where passion should really be about the quality, not the quantity. Like we're, so we measure everything it feels like. And I think that just adds to the stress and burnout. We can't just be passionate about something. We have to, for me, the pressure to measure and log 800 miles, like, why couldn't I have just said I'm going to ride my bike this summer and I'm going to love it? I think we experienced the same thing in a career setting, and just in general, it just feels like we have to have a reason or a number that we're working towards or like, it doesn't count unless you achieve something with it. And so, yeah, I think the collective trauma and the burnout is a direct result of feeling like we have to live up to some. Expectation that we don't even know who said it, but we feel the pressure to meet it.Dawn TaylorWhere do you think that started? Like I know where a lot of ours would have started. Right? And that was started with how we were raised. Started with, you know, I come from an Eastern European, like a German background, and it's like you help your neighbors and you help everybody, and you give, give, give, give, give. And boundaries aren't a thing. Boundaries. Why would you have boundaries? You know boundaries. Boundaries are walls. Boundaries are evil. You're blocking. No, no, no. Boundaries are the most beautiful thing ever. And, like, so I know where that comes from in my world. Right? The constant need to give above and beyond. And I think it's the above and beyond that's the problem is it's not just about giving because I, I still fully believe that we do need to serve. We do need to give. We do need to, you know, volunteer for things like 100% like I have six massive cases of printer paper sitting in my entrance right now because there's a charity in need. And I had paper delivered today. Right? But it's the difference between buying six massive cases and buying 50 masses of cases, and then posting everywhere about it, and then having to figure out how to get it to them, and then doing a photo shoot and then making it a big ordeal and then stressing out because financially I couldn't afford to buy 50 cases of paper. And but if I don't buy the 50 cases and now they run out of paper in the next five years, I'm at fault because I said like, do you know what I mean? It feels like that's like, maybe that's a silly example, but it feels like that's what we do.Ben KrakerIt does. Yeah. For me, I think of two examples or two possibilities come to mind of the origin story. Um, in my life, I grew up in a family setting where I was very different from my two brothers. They were into the hunting and the fishing and the. They were both pretty sporty. Um, and then my dad shared a lot of those similar interests, and I would say my dad and both of my brothers, um, certainly don't have the same personality makeup as I do. Like, I realized that I am a rare breed. I'm a sensitive man. I wear my emotions on my sleeve. Frankly, I don't think my brothers and even my dad were comfortable with that growing up. So, what that does for me, and I'm sure for others who may be listening, is it creates this sense of obligation to meet somebody else's desires for you. It's like somebody else has, like, these conditions that you need to meet in order to have a relationship with them. And whether that's true or not, it's the feeling. And the feeling eventually motivates the behavior. And I very much saw that in my life. So that's something that comes to mind as an origin point, just not feeling at home in my family of origin, and then feeling like I had to set some arbitrary things to accomplish in order to be what my dad or brothers are and things like that. So, that's certainly one of the origins. And the second I would say is social media. Like, I think a lot of this is a recent phenomenon. I look back to the days before social media where if you're like, you wouldn't know what your friends were up to every single day. Every single minute of the day. Because they're not, I mean, there's nowhere to look. And so when social media hits the the scene, all of a sudden there's like this pressure to one up each other like, oh, so-and-so just went to the Bahamas. Well, now I need to go to Turks and Caicos or whatever it is, like there's this pressure to, to do better, to one up them. And it takes away from that sense of contentment, of just enjoying it. Um, and then like you were saying, like whenever a good deed is done, there's like this massive pressure to, like, record it and make a big deal out of it and put it on social media. And so much energy these days get spent on like hustling and making a name for yourself. And my question to that is, why do you need to make a name for yourself with people who will watch a video and then scroll on to the next video and not even think about you again? Like, why do we give so much time and attention and value to these fly by night people that will never really have a certain level of engagement with, because it's just something on our phone screen that we're seeing as we scroll.Dawn TaylorI love that you said that. It's. I have been. So if you've listened to my podcast episodes, there's one about why is it so hard to make friends as adults?Ben KrakerYes, and that was a good one.Dawn TaylorYou're part of that one. The broken relationship right between you and a friend. Yeah, and he was the one who was on the podcast with me talking about it. So it was amazing today to hear that you guys have prepared a lot of that relationship. And you have healthy boundaries now, and you've figured out what works for you. And it's working really, really well. But I have lost friends over this last year over the over many years, and I'm sure for a lot of reasons, I know I'm not a super easy person to be friends with and that's who I am. But I have had so many people in my life and I've noticed that, especially over this last year, get mad because I can't come to their event. I can't come to their party. I don't want to host a party for them. I can't show up at things that they're doing or whatever it is, whatever it is, because of my lack of capacity and the amount of pain that has come with that would blow people's minds, of when I say no, I'm sorry, I can't. And they're like, what? Like, what's wrong with you?Ben KrakerAnd we were friends, right?Dawn TaylorAnd I said, this is some of the day. I said, you know what? It's by me. Choosing me doesn't mean I'm rejecting you.Ben KrakerThat's a very good point.Dawn TaylorI'm not. I'm not rejecting you. I'm not rejecting you by me choosing my health, by me choosing my my family, my husband, my, whatever it is. It does not mean I'm rejecting you. And people don't like that.Ben KrakerI don't know, I think I might push back a bit on that idea of rejection, like. I don't know. I would say it is rejection. And rejection is just part of life. Like you're not always going to get the dream job that you wanted. You're not going to, if you're in sales, you're not going to close the big deal all the time, like you're going to be rejected. You're not going to be able to marry the person of your dreams necessarily right away. So, I think when we say no to people, we are rejecting them. And it's okay.Dawn TaylorBut is it the rejecting them? Or there is emotions being attached to a decision that shouldn't be based on the intention behind it? Yeah. I mean, like, if I'm being invited to, like, a KKK event. Yes, I am full on rejecting you by. Hell no. I'm not attending your event. That is a flat-out rejection because my intention behind it is. No. I need you to know that I am not okay with this. And I don't want to do this. Right. But by me saying no. "You know what? I know that we had dinner tonight scheduled, but my husband has asked if there's any way I can be home and spend the evening with him, because he's really needing to connect to me right now." I don't think I'm rejecting. And maybe that's something I need to really look at for myself, but for me, I would never take that as a rejection from somebody. I'd be like, oh, they're just not available.Ben KrakerSure. Yeah.Dawn TaylorAnd they didn't reject. So have we become too sensitive? Right. We're maybe meaning right. Or we've attached a personal meaning to everything.Ben KrakerYes, well, way to turn the table back on me, because that just reveals one of my tendencies, like I do take things like probably more personally than I should a lot of the time. And, you know, it can be to my benefit if I take things personally. Like I had a customer this week who had an issue with their phones, and I just listened and I empathized and was like, "Oh, that is rough. Oh, somebody left you a negative review because of their poor experience with your phones when they called. That sucks. That's not okay." So I so in some sense is taking things personally earns credibility. But I also see where you're coming from. Maybe it's not a rejection. Maybe it's just as you're saying, I just can't do, it doesn't have to be an emotion tied behind it. Not everything in life has a emotion anchoring it, and that's a really hard concept for me to grasp.Dawn TaylorI can see that. But it's, for me personally, I think that that is what, like I've had to put some of those boundaries in place to keep me from burning out.Ben KrakerYeah.Dawn TaylorRight?Ben KrakerDefinitely.Dawn Tayloryou know, it's no different than, like, no, I can't come to your event. I can't come to this networking event. And it's not because I don't love you. It's not because I don't support you. It's not because I don't want to be there, I actually can't.Ben KrakerRight. And sometimes that's okay. And you don't even need to explain if you can't.Dawn TaylorRight. And I think that that's where we actually need to just give ourselves more grace. But also look at that burnout piece to be like, "What is it that I am putting on my plate? What is it that I am doing to earn favor with someone?"Ben KrakerYes.Dawn TaylorVersus this is something I love and I'm passionate about. Yeah. Think that's the other piece of the burnout is yes, we become obsessed right where it's like, but I have to go to every hockey game, and I have to go to every sporting event, and I have to play every single round of golf, and I have to write 800 miles on my bike, and I have to travel nonstop, and I have to do all those things. And the burnout 100% hits. The burnout hits because we actually just don't have the capacity to do everything that we're trying to do, right? And that obsession. But often like, and I talked to clients about this all the time is anytime we have like a big emotion to something or a big reaction or like a big action to something. What is it we're trying to. What is the need we're trying to meet?Ben KrakerYes.Dawn TaylorRight. So are we needing someone to be like you did? Good, kid. Way to go ride your bike. Are we needing to feel loved or are we needing to feel accepted? Or are we needing to feel like we're part of something? Or are we needing to feel like we're part of a community? Are we like there's always a deeper emotion there that is attached to it. But I think because we attach those emotions to things, because needing that need met, then when someone else can't meet that expectation for of us or that we've put on them, we immediately go to hurt because we're not upset that they didn't show up at our event. We're not upset that they didn't, you know, come out to something. We're not upset that they didn't travel one more time to see us that month. We're actually like, "You don't love me. I'm not enough."Ben KrakerMm. Yeah. You internalize it when it doesn't need to be internalized.Dawn TaylorNo, it was all external. It was all just this big external thing. And I think that that's I don't know I think that's a lot of the burnout. Right. Definitely. But there's always somebody else that needs more or whatever it is.Ben KrakerYeah. So taking what you said about unmet needs, do you think? Well, I guess what do you think? How do those unmet needs, what's the connection to social media? I think for me, I see a lot of connection there. Curious if if you see anything like you were talking about, if you got the 50 cases of paper, um, do you think there's an unmet need that motivates people to put it all out there on social media?Dawn TaylorOh, absolutely. I think that people are I think a lot of us don't feel significant in our lives anymore, where we don't have, we were raised in a culture where you get a star, you get a star on the top of a paper for doing good. You get graded. You get graded every single day of your entire childhood until you're about 18, where it's like you literally get a mark. Where it's like, how good did you do? You get a gold sticker, you get a gold star, you get an attaboy, you win a trophy, right? You are. There is a tangible. There's a tangible checklist. There is a tangible way to acknowledge that you are important or not, or if you've done right or wrong or good or bad. And because we're raising that, I don't I'm not saying we need to get rid of grades. I'm not saying we need to get rid of all of those things. I do think, though, that there isn't any room in that for like, "Hey, what about like, who you are as a person? What about your heart? What about did you serve?" What about like, there's so many other things in that. The problem is we then become adults. And now the only significance we often get is from a significant other. Right, "I love you. You're amazing. You're great. Thank you, thank you, thank you." Whatever. If you're lucky enough to have someone that has the words of affirmation going on, sure, there's a vulnerability piece there. So now the minute they insult you, the minute they're mad at you, whatever. It hurts. So now you're not getting it there. And we don't have like, there's so many broken parent-child relationships. Like I remember someone asking me the thing I miss most about my dad. And I was like, "You know, I have done some really freaking cool stuff over the last 12 years, and I would love to just hear, like 'You did good, kid. Look, I'm proud of you.'" and we don't get that anymore, right? Like so many of us don't get any of those affirmations of like, "Hey, you matter. You're important. I'm really glad you're here on this earth." And so when we can put that out there on social media. And other people feed that to you, whether it's authentic or not. It still meets that need. So I think that's a piece of it. I think the other piece of it is there was a contentedness to life. When we only saw what we were doing and what our neighbors were doing, and what our friends or the people at church were doing in the small way, we saw it right when we only saw their houses, and we only saw their clothes, and we only saw how they ate, and we only saw their decor, and we only knew that they went camping every other weekend during the summer, because that was what they did in their tents, like, and that was it. That was that was their life. There was this beautiful content that, I feel like, yeah, we all kind of live this similar life. And, I mean, there was always like a wee hierarchy of like, oh, those people have a motorhome. We only have tents like, but the gaps were so much smaller because we didn't see what people were actually doing. And now with social media, right. You might see somebody. I mean, I know someone might get mad at me for saying this, but you have the people like the Rachel Hollis of the world who built this entire, like, cult following community of people around her, and being this marriage guru and everything is perfect. And then suddenly they're getting divorced.Ben KrakerYeah, right. Yeah.Dawn TaylorAnd you end up with situations like that. So now you're watching somebody on social media and you're like, "Oh my gosh, they constantly travel and look at how amazing their life is." and look at how and we become discontent with our own life. "Oh, they're spouse's fitter than mine. Oh, they're eating better food than me. Oh, look at their brand new wardrobe. Oh, look at how they've renovated their house. I want to hang really, really fancy, expensive, crazy wallpaper in my house, too." Right? Because this is what we're seeing. We're seeing this everywhere. And because it's like we're constantly given proof, every scroll, we're given proof that we are not as good as someone else. Yeah, we're not enough.Ben KrakerYeah. Sorry. Didn't mean to interrupt you. Interesting to me is The concept of Reddit, like there is a subreddit for absolutely everything on planet Earth, it feels like like are you into AI image generation? Oh, there's a subreddit for you. Cycling, health, different medicines, psychology, counseling, cities. Like, there's such a need for people to, like, have significance. And they, it's like they can't find that significance on their own. They have to have somebody else validate them for caring about the things they care about. And before social media, like if you were into rock collecting, you could just be into rock collecting. And it didn't have to become this huge thing that you join online communities about or, or post pictures of your rocks for all the world to see, and trying to convince them that you matter because you're a rock collector. You could just collect the damn rocks and look at them and find satisfaction and be okay with that. But, with the advent of social media and Reddit and everything else, it's like we have to. There's this weird pressure to find validation from other people, as if our own satisfaction from doing those things isn't enough. And that's just batshit crazyDawn TaylorIsn't it? Yeah, when it is. I had a comment from some of the day and she's like, I love how she's like, "You're so just like, open and honest about what's going on in your life." Like, I'm the first person to be like, I think it was like my birthday post to my husband. This last year was like, "You're a pain in the ass. And at times I've hated your guts. Yeah, I love you more than anything. And I'm glad we fought for us." Right? But also I'm like, oh, there I go, off to IVs again. And this sucks really bad. And I cried the whole time. But you know what? It's keeping me alive. And it's keeping me healthy to, you know, someone laughed and they're like, "I love that you travel as much as you do, and you go to all these cool places, but you're so willing to show that, like, you're literally living in a garden shed instead of showing that you're like, at the Ritz-Carlton, right?" And I'm like, "Well, no, because I have a budget this big, like this little tiny budget for travel my husband and I have agreed on, and I try to get as much out of it as I can." But that also means like, I was gone for ten days and I think I ate one meal out.Ben KrakerWow. That's impressive.Dawn TaylorI cooked, I was in Portland and I didn't even go to a single food truck.Ben KrakerI feel like you missed out on so much of the Portland culture?Dawn TaylorOh, 100% I did, but it also was if I wanted to go for that long and I wanted to do what I wanted to do, it was like, what are my priorities and where does it matter? Because I don't need a photo of my food to know that I had a good time. I don't need a photo of those things, right? Like I was in New York for three weeks and didn't need a single slice of pizza.Ben KrakerWow. Impressive.Dawn TaylorAgain, I hardly ate out. I cooked all my food. I walked the 15 minutes every two days in about groceries and put them in my little backpack and walked back like, that's what I did. But, I also did so many cool, amazing things while I was there and did multiple Broadway shows and did all these cool things, but it was never about I'm doing this for a like. I'm doing this to brag about it. I'm doing this to make myself significant. I'm doing this so I can tell someone I did it. I'm doing this for... Right? And I think that's where, I don't know. I think as a society if we actually sat back. And we're like, "What do I want? What do I actually want? What do I actually desire? What are my actual priorities?" You know, I get asked to donate for charities constantly, constantly. I at times in my life have gotten 3 to 5 emails a day asking for money, time, resources, whatever. And I used to I had a very, very strict list of who I would donate to, what the like, the metrics that they had to hit for me to ever do a donation. And there's a pretty big list of metrics that I'd share with people if they ever were interested. But I really, really put time and energy and effort into that. And I remember one charity getting really mad at me for it. And I said, you know what's really interesting? And they were like, what? And I said, I could give, I could give to you all day, 100%, I could. I said, but if I give to every single person, I'm going to be on the other side needing charity because I will bankrupt myself, and I will end up on the street. And I will end up with nothing because I gave everything away.Ben KrakerYeah.Dawn TaylorPeople don't get that. People don't get that. So what was your breaking point? Let's go back to your breaking point of what made you hit. So you left the church, the leadership portion of the church, right?Ben KrakerWell, I'm still involved in leadership.Dawn TaylorJust not full time.Ben KrakerI'm not getting a paycheck for it. It's really the biggest distinguisher. And for some reason, like, that's what kind of flipped the switch in my head. I realized while I was still employed in the church that I was doing it because that's what I got paid to do, and I had to do it a certain way in order to get that paycheck. And so, though it may not have been in line with my passions, the way I was doing my ministry was. The expectation of the church because they're the ones writing the paycheck. So I better fall in line with what they want. And so what I found myself doing is like basically borrowing other people's stuff. That wasn't my own idea and finding what was going to fit for that context, and then doing it and striving so hard to lead a ministry based on somebody else's ideas. Side note, if you ever want a side hustle to get into, get into writing curriculum for youth group, because my goodness, there are just thousands of them out there. And churches pay so much money for VBS curriculum, youth group curriculum. It's just again, an indicator of how off

Content Warning: In this episode, we discuss some topics that listeners may find disturbing such as loss and trauma. Why you would want to listen to this episode…While we’ve seen it portrayed everywhere from movies to TV, the life of a military spouse isn’t exactly as it’s made out to be. However, today’s guest Jenny Ryce is nonetheless thankful for all that’s happened in her life. As a military wife, she shares her story of how she navigated through life and approached it with caution knowing her husband was out in the field protecting their country. She may not have learned to defuse bombs or crawl through landmines, but Jenny’s unique journey to self-discovery and parenthood is both challenging and compelling in its own way. Who this forIf you've ever wondered what it's like to live with your significant other as someone who serves their country, this episode is for you. It’s a unique look at military culture and the adjustments Jenny and her husband had to make - from the limited ways of communication to parenting their children in an unorthodox way. It’s an interesting listen for those intrigued by military life. About Dawn TaylorDawn Taylor is the professional ass-kicker, hope giver, life strategist, trauma specialist, and all-around badass. Dawn's journey into helping others heal began when she took her personal recovery from the trauma she experienced in her life into her own hands. While at times unconventional, Dawn’s strategic methods have helped hundreds heal from traumas such as issues related to infidelity,  overcoming addiction,  working through PTSD from sexual, emotional, and physical abuse, as well as helping cult survivors thrive. Dawn’s work has empowered entrepreneurs, stay-at-home moms, and CEOs alike to be superheroes in their own lives. Having completed thousands of hours of training from many professional programs, including the Robbins Madanes Training Institute, Dawn’s blunt honesty will challenge your thinking, broaden your awareness, and help you achieve the outstanding results you are worthy of.Connect with Dawn here at The Taylor Way: Consultation Call | Website | Facebook | Instagram | LinkedInGet to know Dawn on a deeper level through her book! Order HereP.S. I Made It, is a powerful story that grabs you through its lack of pretension and honesty. Every page reveals another layer of curious wonder at both Dawn’s life and the power of hope that moves within each of us. Dawn’s hope is that you use this book as a resource to deal with your struggles. Share it with someone who needs it. We all want to feel like someone understands what it’s like to suffer through something and – come out the other side. She describes her life as “horrifically beautiful and beautifully horrific. Guest BioJenny Ryce is a PCC Accredited Executive Coach, speaker, podcast host of Winning with Wellness, bestselling author and the President of Business from the Heart AwardsJenny is passionate about connecting others to the power of mindset and wellness. When she is not pursuing her professional passions, Jenny can be found spending time in nature, getting grounded and finding inspiration.Jenny is the proud mother to two amazing daughters and the wife of a military veteran. You will often hear her say that they fuel her passion.It is time to redefine your wellness and experience first-hand what Winning with Wellness can do. Jenny believes that you should always capitalize on your greatest asset, YOUGuest Social LinksWebsite - https://businessfromtheheart.caCoaching Instagram - @jennyrycecoaching Business Instagram - @businessfromtheheartawards Thanks for listening!Thanks so much for listening to our podcast! If you enjoyed this episode and think that others could benefit from listening, please share it using the social media buttons on this page. Do you have some feedback or questions about this episode? Leave a comment in the section below!Follow the podcastIf you want to receive new podcast episodes automatically, you can follow us on Apple Podcasts or in your favourite podcast app.Please leave us an Apple Podcasts reviewRatings and reviews from our listeners are extremely valuable to us and greatly appreciated. They help our podcast rank higher on Apple Podcasts, which exposes our show to more awesome listeners like you. If you have a minute, please leave an honest review.Views Expressed, Legal and Medical DisclaimerThis podcast (including any/all site pages, blog posts, blog comments, forums, videos, audio recordings, etc.) is not intended to replace the services of a physician, nor does it constitute a doctor-patient relationship. Information is provided for informational purposes only and is not a substitute for professional medical advice. You should not use the information on this podcast for diagnosing or treating a medical or health condition. If you have or suspect you have an urgent medical problem, promptly contact your professional healthcare provider. Any application of the recommendations in this podcast/website is at the listener/reader's discretion. The views and opinions expressed are those of guests and do not necessarily reflect the opinion or policy of Dawn Taylor, The Taylor Way and or its Associates. The before mentioned are not liable for any direct or indirect claim or loss.   TranscriptDawn TaylorHello, hello. I'm your host, Dawn Taylor, and today we are talking to my person, my girl, my right hand wrangler of this shit show. Jenny, I have been asking Jenny forever if we could record this episode because she has a really different life story than a lot of people, but one that I think that we're all very interested by, curious by. We've seen portrayed in books and TV and movies and all of those things. But to get a very real, vulnerable inside perspective is something different. So topic today, military wife and mom behind the scenes. So before we get started, I'll tell you a little bit about her so that you can fall in love with her the way I have. Jenny is a mom. She's a wife, she's a coach, she's an avid outdoorsman. I've never met anybody who gives the way she does, loves as hard as she does, or shows up for people in her world the way that she does. She is a coach. She has her own podcast. She is just a little powerhouse and she's the person that keeps everything going in my little world. So welcome to the show, Jenny.Jenny RyceThanks for having me. The last time I was here, you thought you're interviewing me and I took it over and interviewed you.Dawn TaylorI know, and I was like, okay, that's fine, but we still have to interview you.Jenny RyceYou have to do the podcast.Dawn TaylorSo I've watched the show Army Wives. We've all like, seen the book, read the book, seeing the TV, seeing the movies, whatever, where it portrays life as an army wife or a military wife. Right? Okay. For starters, can we differentiate what the terms are?Jenny RyceWell, a lot of things are very different from American, to the US. So, military wives get lumped in. You know, there is a border difference just between terms in reference to skill sets, ranking all those kind of things from American to Canadian. So, I'm a Canadian military wife. So, let's start with that. So our you know our roles and lives are very, very different. I have never watched an episode of Military Wives. It's one of those things, or Army Wives, I just can't do it. Probably because it would, I don't know, I don't want to judge. I haven't watched it, but I've seen like some of those Housewives shows and I can't handle watching people treat each other that way on TV. It makes me wild.Dawn TaylorSo to watch, okay, so avoid it. It would also probably trigger you a little. Right? So you were not just a military wife of how many years has it been?Jenny RyceSo my husband and I, we've been very fortunate to be married for well, I always say I've been dating my boyfriend for 31 years and we've been married for 29, so we hit the 30, will be 30 years married next year, so, or in 2024 depending on when you happen to be listening to this episode. So we're we're very fortunate. You know, I'm one of the OG wives when we go to reunions and that there's the OG wife group and then there's the, you know, the ones that didn't make it, right. They're just as lovely, don't get me wrong. But there's only a handful of us that are OGs, for sure.Dawn TaylorWell, I'm hearing the little bit that I've heard about what life was like through all of those years where he was deployed and all of that. I can see why. I can see why there aren't very many of the OGs. But, you're not just that. You also have two adult daughters that are also in the Army.Jenny RyceYes. Okay. So these are some terms that we could we could share. Forgot to answer your question. See I'm not a very good guest. I'm great at interviewing, but I'm not a very good guest. So when we think of military, military is like the umbrella. So, the Canadian Armed Forces, the umbrella is military and there's elements within the military. So, my husband is Army, there's Air Force and then there's Navy. So my daughters are Navy, my husband's army. And actually, not only is my daughter's Navy, my nephew is Navy as well as my son in law is Navy. So we have a bit of a legacy going on. And yeah, we cornered the market in the Navy. And of course, there's always these jokes at the table about Army versus Navy, etcetera, etcetera. It was like, "How did I produce Navy? I'm Army." I'm like, "Honey, they didn't want to be in a trench. Come on now."  So that that might help, so yeah. Overall encompassing military. If you say military you're covered.Dawn TaylorHey, this is very good to know because how many times if I even said it wrong and you've explained this to me and I'm like, "Okay, sorry." Which one is the overarching umbrella one again? Okay. So, listeners, Canadian, if you were Canadian, it is just say military, just a military. They won't be too offended.Jenny RyceWell in, you know we definitely, it's to Google it. There's just so much information about but also to within each element there's specific traits. So, my husband was a combat engineer. And what that meant is he's an explosive ordnance disposal expert. So, for those of you I've never watched the movie because I couldn't watch it with him because I knew he'd be like, "It doesn't do that. It doesn't." Anyway, watching movies where things blow up with your husband when he's an explosive expert kind of wrecks everything. So I know what doesn't blow up a certain way and what does move a certain way. So he's a mind specialist and an explosive specialist. So, there's every single element has different skill sets. So, in the Navy my daughters are one is a logistics officer and the other is an image technician. So, very different skill sets. But they're all under elements. So, just say military, it's easier.Dawn TaylorSo, been knowing your husband's like the bomb guy and the bomb guy. The explosions guy. So let's talk about, like, I have so many questions. I'm guessing you know this, but. when you first met him, was he in the military?Jenny RyceYes. And it's so fascinating because I, so he lived in a military town. My grandparents lived in a military town, and I actually came to the live in the military town. Usually, when there's a base there, they call it a military town. In reality, there's a lot of other things that go on into town. In a town like Edmonton, there's more than just the military base in Edmonton. However, you know, when you're in the military world, it's the military town. So, I had never dated somebody in the military, you have to realize too, I was 20 years old when I met my husband. I was young, very young. I'd never dated anyone in the military. Didn't know the difference between dating somebody in the military and not dating anyone in the military. So, he was actively, he was relatively new. He had just come back from being in Kuwait the first time for I call it Bush one, Bush one, and Bush two. So he was in the wheat in 91, and he had just come back and we had met and we hit it off like a house on fire. He was like instantly my best friend.Dawn TaylorAnd hey, you guys, really quick. Yeah. Really quick. Her husband looks exactly like Shane on the last season of Love is Blind. Like, exactly like him. Okay, I'm not posting photos because he's real private, but you guys need to know that just you have a mental image as you're hearing this, okay? Keep going.Jenny RyceSo, yeah. So apparently that's what Dawn thinks. 1.2s So that's what he looks likeDawn TaylorOr Val Kilmer.Jenny RyceWhen we were dating. Yeah. He looked like Val Kilmer from Top Gun. The first round. The OG of Top Gun and occasionally now he gets the John Dunn reference. But anyway, so I think my husband's a babe but that's, that's you know you guys can decide yourselves. So, yeah, I didn't know anything about dating a military person and okay can we talk about this term that people tell you? "You knew what you were doing." Nobody knows what they're getting into. Nobody knows. How can you know if you don't know? Right. I didn't know what it meant. I didn't know what being married or dating a soldier looked like or what that meant. So everybody, please, I beg you, not only give yourself grace, but give other people grace. Nobody knows what they're doing till they're in it. And even then, 90% of us are just scraping through and trying to figure it out to begin.Dawn TaylorHow true is that?Jenny RyceSo yeah, I had and because I didn't live in said town, I grew up in a large city. I had no idea. I didn't know anything about dating a military guy. I just knew that we were like fast friends, and we had so many of the same interests, and I was madly in love with him. And it, like, it was one of those sparks, right? That hits. And I would move. I would move mountains for him. And I knew it. And I still I still feel that way today, which is really cool. It's not been easy though.Dawn TaylorAnyone who's been married for like six weeks, I'm like, "No, no, no." Yeah. It's not easy if we've survived this long. We've been through hell and back.Jenny RyceYeah. You've done you've slogged through the mud. Yeah, yeah. You've literally dug a trench or something.Dawn TaylorLike we've been in the trenches at this point. Yeah.Jenny RyceYeah, totally.Dawn TaylorI do love that we both still love our husbands so much. Yeah. It's one of the coolest things of working with you is like, we just have this bond over that,Jenny RyceWhich is fortunate because I know in this day and age we're rare. We're very blessed.Dawn TaylorSo rare.Jenny RyceAnd when I say that, I say it. You know, with immense pride. But I also know it's a lot of work, like my husband's my job. He's one of my jobs. You know, I say this often, especially to my young ladies. And, you know, my oldest is in a relationship and married recently is. We spend our whole lives being trained on things. We go to school to be trained. We get a job, we get trained, we buy a car, we have a manual, all those kind of things. We are never educated and trained on how to be a good spouse, or how to be a good friend, or how to be a good daughter. None of that. It's all like, "Hey, you should just figure this out. So it's, being in a relationship is a lot of work. And if you don't put work in, you know, I always say the grass that you fertilize is green. People like, you know, it might look shiny and beautiful often, you know, over that other fence. But I tell you what, there's crab weed in that sucker, too. When you get up close, if you don't pay attention.Dawn TaylorI love that you say that because I often say the grass is only greener on the other side because there's a lot of shit there.Jenny RyceIt's true though, you don't like the good stuff, right? You take your time, you weed your garden, you nurture, do those kind of things. But be kind to yourself too, in relationships because you're learning. And one thing that I've learned is to remind myself and Scott and I work really hard on that, is to remember that we're tackling the problem together. It's not us against each other. It's like, "Okay, this is our problem. What do we need to do to tackle the problem?" Don't get me wrong, it took time to get to that process and to learn that. But again, I said I was so young, like, Scott and I grew up together. We built a life together, and if I look at my age now, I'm 52 and I'm not ashamed to say that I'm pretty proud of that. When I look at my life, he's been in my life longer than out of my life, if that makes sense. Right? So it's one of the gifts of digging in for the long haul is, you know, you learn the little things, you learn the this the smiles, you learn, you learn the "Oh, that's pissed him off." You don't mean nothing has to be said in this moment.Dawn TaylorI had one of those this morning where I was talking to a friend here for coffee, and I was like, "I should upgrade his seat on the plane for his trip he's on next week." And I was like, "Nah." And she's herself. And she goes, "Really?" I was like, "No, I'm mad at him." She's like, "Isn't he like 6'2''?" I was like, "Yeah." She's like, "You're going to make him suffer." I was like, "When we check him in on Sunday, I'll decide." She just started laughing. See where we're at. I know I was like, we'll see where we're at Sunday. All right, so you just come back. We're going to do, actually, an entire podcast. We're going to convince my husband to do an entire podcast with me where we're going to talk what it's actually like to be married and in a relationship that long. But, like the good, the bad, the ugly, the stuff that most people would probably be shocked that one of us will say, we're going to go there, we're going to fully go there. That's going to be coming out. Depending on when you're listening to this in the new year, it'll be in the new year in 2024.Jenny Ryce2024, depending when you're listening.Dawn TaylorYes, 2024. But let's get back to this. So, you guys meet, you fall in love. And what does life look like?Jenny RyceYou know what? Life is actually really blissful. I mean, except for the fact that all of a sudden I'm in love with this man I never see because he's away all the time. That was a really hard adjustment, was, you know, figuring out, like, "Oh my gosh, I never see him because he was away quite a bit on training."Dawn TaylorWhat do you mean by away quite a bit? Like, what does that look like? Because for some people, being away from their spouse for a weekend is too much. I remember one time when Chad was gone for seven months and only home for three days in seven months, and I was like, "Yeah, that was a hard one." And people were like, shook by that. So for definition's sake, what does that look like when he was gone a lot?Jenny RyceSo I figured it out. I did the math once, and I would say for the first ten years of our relationship, he was gone eight months every year on average is kind of how it worked. Yeah, a lot. So he was either away training. He was either way overseas in a support role, whether UN peacekeeper or, you know, doing mind clearing. He was part of the ice storm going in and cleaning up that and helping with that. So, just, yeah, away a lot which can be, that's part of the stuff. When people say you knew what you were doing when you got on board, it's like, "No, no, I really didn't." You know, you don't know what you don't know. So, that was part of the challenging thing. It's interesting because I made a commitment when we when we started dating. When he asked me to marry him, which he came, he didn't want to ask me to marry him, which I didn't realize, of course, until he got back. When he got back from deployment, he was over in Bosnia and he got back in '92, and he asked me to marry him. And he's like, "I didn't want to ask you before I left in case something happened to me." Which unfortunately, in his line of work, if you make a misstepDawn TaylorYou don't get second chances.Jenny RyceYeah, things don't go well. And unfortunately, we have suffered loss and and experience that firsthand. And it's challenging. So, when he asked me to marry him, I was like, "Hell yeah!" I said, "But only if you're in this for the long haul." I come from my parents, separated when I was six years old, and I wanted to be, I did not want to follow in that pattern, that footstep. So, I was like, "If you're all in, I'll do it with you. But we have to be all in." And he too comes from a split family and was like, "Yeah, we're only doing this once." So, I don't know if it was naivety or if it was, like, pure will or arrogance or what, but I was like, "I'm never getting divorced."Dawn TaylorI'm gonna say probably a combo of all of right. Knowing you, probably a combo of all of these.Jenny RyceI'm like, I'm pretty frickin' stubborn and I'm I'm pretty driven and have high standards for myself. So I was like, no, this is this is a non-negotiable. Like, if you're my person, I've picked you and I'm in. And ine thing that was really hard about the separation, and I know you didn't ask this question, but I want to share it. One of the things that was hard, but also looking back from who I am today. It gave me space to become me. If that makes sense.Dawn Taylor100% it does.Jenny RyceRight? So, because I was in this really deep relationship at a very young age. I could have easily swallowed myself up into that relationship, which in truth, I did. But, because we had those gaps in time, I had to really dig in and figure out who I was. And I had to be strong because like I said, you know, we did experience loss and trauma and and it isn't like, your husband just goes away and or your spouse or your loved one or your children or whoever it is, they don't just go away and go to work. And my husband is climbing around a minefield. Right? That's not a normal day at work for the average person.Dawn TaylorNo.Jenny RyceAnd so there's high risk. And you hear things on the news and it makes you, like, literally become paralyzed in fear because you're praying that the names you hear aren't your people. Whether it's your loved one, your best friends, whoever it is.Dawn TaylorSo can we talk about that for a sec?Jenny RyceYeah, absolutely. Dawn TaylorSo, Jenny and I were talking about this a little while ago. We were discussing, you know, data recording and stuff, and I said, "I wonder what most people don't realize is this is pre-cell phone, pre-emails, pre-FaceTime." Like, guys, this is pre-all of that.Jenny RyceYeah, it was rough.Dawn TaylorAll of that. And so, it's not like it is today where you're talking like your daughter can talk to her husband every day. And, they have cell phones like a Skype. And they can FaceTime and they can do all these things. Right? It's it was a completely different world. So, not only were you. I mean, of all the roles to have in the military, the guy that takes care of the bombs, right? The bomb guy. I'm going to just call him the bomb guy.Jenny RyceHe loves that. That's great.Dawn TaylorOkay. It's not the official name because I can't remember it ever. But, like, the bomb guy, that, when you watch the news, which we all know is not. always factual - is that a politically correct way to put it?Jenny RyceYou learn that real quick.Dawn TaylorYou learn that super fast. Even back in '92. Right? But what was it even like to communicate with him? And when he did go for deployment, how long was he gone?Jenny RyceSo, he would, generally speaking, they would have to go anywhere from 6 to 8 weeks for pre-deployment training. So, they would take them to wherever, which obviously wasn't at home. And they would simulate and experience scenarios. et cetera, to be overseas. And then then he would come home, he would maybe have 2 or 3 weeks off and then it would deploy for six months at minimum usually. And in that scenario, we would get in the middle of the six weeks, six months. Part of me, he would get two weeks off. And whether I would come to him or he would come to me, we would get a two week vacation in between to connect. And then that would happen. So, I'm just thinking of this week. We got married in April, and then 20 days later he deployed overseas andDawn TaylorWow.Jenny RyceSo that was, you know, rough.Dawn TaylorAnd how far in advance do you hear about deployments, like, how much?Jenny RycePut it this way, we were supposed to be getting married in July and we had to reschedule. We had everything booked, planned, organized, and we rescheduled the wedding for April. And it turned out to be the most beautiful, small, well, small. I mean, 120 people turned out to be absolutely beautiful wedding. Nothing like we had planned and it was totally meant to be. So, you can, depends on the situation. Like, I was putting a roast on the table when the ice storms happened and he got a call and was gone an hour later. Deployment. Because of the pre training and all of that, we usually have a few months' notice.Dawn TaylorOh okay.Jenny RyceIt could even be up to a year. It just depends on what's happening in theaters, what is another term, it's in theater. So depending on you know what the scenario is. And obviously this is a while ago. So, things have changed. Things are, you know, especially with the news and the media and things like that. But, back then, to make a long distance phone call just like normal to my family was $2 a minute. I mean, we were young, we had no money. So it's like you didn't, don't get me wrong, they didn't charge us in the military to get a phone call from them. That was not, I don't want that to be. But in those days, every ten days we would get, he would get a ten-minute phone call privilege. We never knew when it was coming. We never knew what time. And we never knew what day. And I can't even tell you when you miss the phone call what that felt like, because of course, you'd get a voicemail of "Hey." Because, back then you had the machine that you push the button and you go to voicemail. So, it was like a tape recorder.Dawn TaylorLittle answering machines.Jenny RyceYeah, but if we were fortunate enough to be home and get the call, it was absolutely magical and there'd be a delay. So you'd have to pause so the words would come through, and then so you wouldn't talk over top of each other. And we would always time it because the phone cut off at ten minutes. So, it didn't matter if you were in mid-thought or anything. You got ten minutes and when your time was up, it was up.Dawn TaylorWow.Jenny RyceAnd so there was nothing worse than not getting to say goodbye. So we always cut it, like 30 seconds short so that we could say goodbye. And at the time, that felt like such a gift, right? Because. So, I wrote him a letter every single night. Every single night. I wrote him a letter. And I would bulk send them and I did that up like pretty much every single tour he's ever been on. I wrote a letter every single night about what was happening, because communication didn't start really changing until near the end of his retirement. And then, you could email, I mean, that wasn't even an option back then. Like you couldn't even email. I mean, girl, I lived without a cell phone. Like, we didn't have those years. Yeah, we didn't have a cell phone when we were married. That didn't, those didn't exist. You had a house phone. And if you really like, with it, you had call waiting so two people could call you at the same time. That was it, right? So yeah, communication was challenging. It was challenging. But I'll tell you, nothing held you together like those ten minutes, telling you it was worth every second of it. But, when you got home and you missed that call, I'm telling you, nothing hit you harder in the gut than missing that phone call. It was gold. That phone call was gold.Dawn TaylorNow you wait another ten days.Jenny RyceYeah, and that's providing something isn't happening that they can't call.Dawn TaylorYeah. So funny question. How did he decide who to call? Because, like, I'm guessing his mom wanted a phone call once in a while or, you know, someone like that.Jenny RyceI was very fortunate. He was really close with his dad, and I was really close with his dad. So his dad knew that I was Scott's person for life, and I would just immediately phone and give all the updates, like, this is what he said. And occasionally when I couldn't answer, they got the call and they knew it and they were okay with it and they understood. But, you know, those are, parents are supposed to do that, right? They're supposed to understand. So, I was very fortunate that, yeah, his dad was one of my best friends. He was exceptional. I was very lucky. Very lucky that way.Dawn TaylorIt's amazing.Jenny RyceYeah.Dawn TaylorSo deployments are happening. How often was he deployed?Jenny RyceHe was deployed, so what kind of tend to work out is he would deploy, this is an average okay. Like every other year, because of course he'd have to come home, he'd come home, and then there'd be courses that he would need to take, which of course were never in town. So, he would have to go to different posting locations for six months or eight months or two months or whatever for training in different areas to advance his his skill set and his career and things like that. So yeah. The deployments, if they were happening, were, you know, every other year, every couple of years, those kind of things, it really just depends. Unfortunately, the world was kind of really messy. I mean, it still is. Let's be real. But at the time in my life, when I was going through it, it was kind of messy back then. So, yeah. Yeah. So he was gone a lot, a lot. I remember. You know when one of the days when it was really hard asking myself like. "I am madly in love with a man that I never see. Is my life better with him or without him?" And it was. The answer was always, it's better with him. So the heartache when you can check that balance to that, it's like, "No, this is just, this is where I tap into my resilience and figure out who I am." And, you know. And figure it out. Like, you know, I've got to be okay in this. I've got to thrive in this. And what's cool now is my husband's in my life because I want him here, not because I need him. I figured out real quick, real young as a single quote-unquote single mom. Which of course, no disrespect to single moms out there. They work really hard. But I was I kept woman because my husband, even though I was single, was my husband. I still wasn't alone. Do you know what I mean? But I was alone a lot. Um. I could do anything. You ask me, I can do it. You tell me on. I'll figure it out. Like, the only reason I don't know is because I don't know yet. Yeah. Having to move. Have no friends or family. The middle of some town.Dawn TaylorOkay, so let's talk about the logistics of this. So you get married, he deploys within months or within a month.Jenny RyceYeah.Dawn TaylorHe's gone. How long was he gone? That first time?Jenny RyceHe was gone six months. They actually, the local newspaper did a did an article on us because back then, of course, newspaper was huge. And yeah, they, we were they did a complete article and then actually for a wedding gift or an anniversary gift, it was because it was after the wedding and anniversary gift. They came. I didn't realize they were at the, when he came home from that deployment. Okay. You want to talk, you know, have you ever had that feeling in your body where you tears come out of your face and you can't even stop it? Like, you're just like, your body just is, like, in release because you have, you don't know how much stress or fear or all those things you've held until that person, that bus came around the corner with them all loaded on it. And my face I couldn't, like. I wasn't even sobbing. It was just like pouring out of my face. And of course, what looks better than a young 21 year old?Dawn TaylorLet's hope you were a Kim Kardashian cryer.Jenny RyceI was super popular with the paparazzi, and I don't even remember seeing them. All I remember is seeing him and grabbing him and not letting go. And when I think back, I remember seeing flashes because of course, back then it was all about flashing bulbs and all those kind of things. So, that was six months. That was a long haul. It was a long haul. I did get to go over and see him. We did our honeymoon in Greece. We met in Rome and that was the most beautiful two weeks. It was so incredible. But, it was really hard to say goodbye. Really, really hard to say goodbye. But, I'm so thankful for that opportunity. That was, again, something afforded to us from the military. We had to pay to go and all that kind of but we were given the opportunity and and military life is pretty amazing. If you if you align with the right friends and the right people and of course, the right spouse, right? Life is amazing if you align with the right spouse.Dawn TaylorBut yeah, so he comes back six months, seven months into marriage, he comes back again because it's what we see on TV and reading books and magazines and everything else. I remember watching Army Wives, that's what I'll equate it to, because I always found that show so interesting and thinking like, "How would I react in those moments?"Jenny RyceAnd I'll watch it just because I didn't even know it existed.Dawn TaylorIt's very interesting, but it's.though, you know, there's all the different storylines. You know, some guys come back and they're fine. They're like, nope, that's Army. And now I'm home and it's like a light switch is flipped and they just get back to life and other guys come home and they have such complex PTSD and trauma and they don't know how to cope, and they don't know how to step back into civilian life, and they don't know how to deal with that without breaking any of his confidence, obviously, out of respect for Scott, because it's his story, is that something you had to deal with?Jenny RyceYou know what's so fascinating? And I think this is a statement that covers everybody. Nobody goes on deployment and comes back the same. Yeah. Nobody does. And I was super blessed to not only have Scott in my life, but I had some incredible inherited brothers because of Scott, some of my best friends. Actually, my house was a revolving door, so if Scott was overseas, all the buddies were over at the house like, and I was kind of their sister confidant. Nobody comes back from a tour without something. They never come back the same.Dawn TaylorThere's no way. There's no way.Jenny RyceThere's no freaking way. Some, like you say, come back with it. Better equipped to compartmentalize the challenge. With that as an adult grown-up, now when you compartmentalize and you shove things in a box, we all know that that box blows up eventually. No pun intended, but maybe a little.Dawn TaylorI like to play on words. Yeah. Well done, well done. Jenny.Jenny RyceUm, so what I learned because I was a safe home for so many that went overseas and came back is that I just had to create a space for conversation and because everybody came back different, if that makes sense, and everybody handled it in different ways. I had friends that were contemplating suicide. I had friends that were had attachment issues. I had friends that were couldn't go out in public and then I had friends who life's a party, and they were just living their best life at the time. I know this is kind of like a loose answer to your question. The key that I learned is create safe space, no judgment, and just allow people to share their stories and love on them. Because we're all put in situations. And again, I've heard people say, they say this about firemen and police officers and. It's like, well, they're paid to go into that burning building. They're paid to stand in front of that gun. If you seriously believe that, I challenge you to do what they do. I challenge you to crawl through a minefield. I challenge you and you tell me. That is an inherent part of a human being that isn't in everybody? I'm a wife and a mom and a best friend to these type of individuals. I cannot climb through a minefield. No, I can't do it. There's no fricking way. And I'm telling you, I can do pretty much anything I put my mind to.Dawn TaylorNo, but it takes a different personality and a different mindset and a different everything to be able to do that.Jenny RyceTo be willing to switch off your own life value, survival mode so that you save someone else. Like their stories. I don't know if I'm able to share, but, and I won't with detail because for obvious reasons, but I know of stories where people that I care about deeply and not just my husband, but people I care about deeply that risked their lives to save people they don't even know. Yeah, children they don't know and they're not mandated to do it. It's not like they were ordered to do it. They did it anyway. That is a powerful, like, if you ask me, I'm proud to be a Canadian. Hell, yes. Yeah, because our Canadian soldiers, men and women are exceptional human beings. Are they broken? Unfortunately. It's the job. Unfortunately, it's a job. You can't see and experience that kind of trauma and expect to come out unscathed might not show up for 30 or 40 years, but it shows up always, always shows up. It always shows up and it changes your trajectory. I look at my life, oh my word. Did I ever think I was going to live in like four different provinces have two kids, one in B.C. and one in New Brunswick? I have a nine year gap between my girls. They were supposed to be two years apart. Like, I could never have predicted any of that and I wouldn't change a thing. It's so many things.Dawn TaylorSo, a couple of things I want to talk about is kids. So your husband had a very. I don't know if different, but he had a different idea on what was and was not appropriate, on how and when and where and what and everything when it came to your kids, which is

Content Warning: In this episode, we discuss some topics that listeners may find difficult such as ableism.  Why you would want to listen to this episode…Bean Gill suffered an unfortunate predicament where she lost the use of her legs. However, she did not let that stop her from living life her way all while helping the people around her. Today, she is on this episode of Taylor Way Talks to help break stigmas regarding disabled people and dismantle the oppression towards them, whether it’s done purposely or subconsciously. At the end of the day, disabled people are people too, with their own feelings, wants, dreams and motivations and for Bean Gill, it’s high time the rest of the world recognizes that. Who is this forIt’s a sad truth that disabled people are often seen as lesser people in society. A lot of preconceived notions exist and they are not given a fair chance. This episode is for anyone interested in the ups and downs that disabled people experience, and who wishes to learn more about them as individuals, rather than just their condition.About Dawn TaylorDawn Taylor is the professional ass-kicker, hope giver, life strategist, trauma specialist, and all-around badass. Dawn's journey into helping others heal began when she took her personal recovery from the trauma she experienced in her life into her own hands. While at times unconventional, Dawn’s strategic methods have helped hundreds heal from traumas such as issues related to infidelity,  overcoming addiction,  working through PTSD from sexual, emotional, and physical abuse, as well as helping cult survivors thrive. Dawn’s work has empowered entrepreneurs, stay-at-home moms, and CEOs alike to be superheroes in their own lives. Having completed thousands of hours of training from many professional programs, including the Robbins Madanes Training Institute, Dawn’s blunt honesty will challenge your thinking, broaden your awareness, and help you achieve the outstanding results you are worthy of.Connect with Dawn here at The Taylor Way: Consultation Call | Website | Facebook | Instagram | LinkedInGet to know Dawn on a deeper level through her book! Order HereP.S. I Made It, is a powerful story that grabs you through its lack of pretension and honesty. Every page reveals another layer of curious wonder at both Dawn’s life and the power of hope that moves within each of us. Dawn’s hope is that you use this book as a resource to deal with your struggles. Share it with someone who needs it. We all want to feel like someone understands what it’s like to suffer through something and – come out the other side. She describes her life as “horrifically beautiful and beautifully horrific. Guest BioBean Gill is an Indo-Canadian woman who has lived through many adversities. After being paralyzed by a virus in 2012, she found her purpose and co-founded ReYu Paralysis Recovery Centre, helping hundreds of Canadians reconnect their brain to their body, retrain their nervous system and most importantly redefine what is possible for people with disabilities. Bean has won many awards which have led her to her most recent project, being the star of CBC's docuseries called PUSH, available on CBC Gem. Guest Social LinksEmail - bean@callmebean.comInstagram - https://www.instagram.com/branzoid/Facebook - https://www.facebook.com/Beanzoid/LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/bean-gill/Thanks for listening!Thanks so much for listening to our podcast! If you enjoyed this episode and think that others could benefit from listening, please share it using the social media buttons on this page. Do you have some feedback or questions about this episode? Leave a comment in the section below!Follow the podcastIf you want to receive new podcast episodes automatically, you can follow us on Apple Podcasts or in your favourite podcast app.Please leave us an Apple Podcasts reviewRatings and reviews from our listeners are extremely valuable to us and greatly appreciated. They help our podcast rank higher on Apple Podcasts, which exposes our show to more awesome listeners like you. If you have a minute, please leave an honest review.Views Expressed, Legal and Medical DisclaimerThis podcast (including any/all site pages, blog posts, blog comments, forums, videos, audio recordings, etc.) is not intended to replace the services of a physician, nor does it constitute a doctor-patient relationship. Information is provided for informational purposes only and is not a substitute for professional medical advice. You should not use the information on this podcast for diagnosing or treating a medical or health condition. If you have or suspect you have an urgent medical problem, promptly contact your professional healthcare provider. Any application of the recommendations in this podcast/website is at the listener/reader's discretion. The views and opinions expressed are those of guests and do not necessarily reflect the opinion or policy of Dawn Taylor, The Taylor Way and or its Associates. The before mentioned are not liable for any direct or indirect claim or loss. TranscriptDawn TaylorGood morning. It is me, Dawn Taylor, your host. And today, we get to talk to one of my favorite humans. Her name is Bean Gill. If you do not know Bean, you need to. She's a movie star. No, I'm just kidding. But she does have a TV show. Bean is an Indo Canadian woman who has lived through more adversities than most after being paralyzed by a virus in 2012. Yes, paralyzed by a virus while she was on holidays. We will get into that a little bit. She decided not to just lay down and die. She came back fighting and she decided that it was time to, well, not even time. I'm sure she was doing this before, but she stepped up in a major way and she co-founded the ReYu Paralysis Recovery Center here in Edmonton, helping hundreds of Canadians reconnect their brain to their body, retrain their nervous system, but also to figure out what is actually possible for somebody with disabilities. She's won so many awards, spoken on crazy stages. She has a CBC docu-series called Push that you can watch on CBC Gem. I highly recommend you do. And she is here today. So we're going to have a super fun conversation on this. But we're here to break some ideas on a few things around disability. So what are we talking about today, Bean? Bean GillI'm muted. Thanks for having me. Dawn TaylorNo problem. Bean GillConversation. Um. Yeah. What are we going to talk about today? We're going to talk about all the things most people don't want to talk about. We're going to destigmatize sex, incontinence, bodily functions, having a disability, the attitudinal barriers that people have, the stigmas and biases and stereotypes that people have and hopefully break a lot of those down.  Dawn Taylor100%. So let's start at the beginning, even just with your story. So, you and I met a couple of years ago. Someone had connected us with a zoom call, hit it off, and then we're kind of, how have we described ourselves? We're both like really motivated, driven business women. And so when I came back to Edmonton, you were very high on my list of no, I actually want to, lik,e meet you in person and hang out. And we had a blast at lunch. It's so much good food and I had such a good time. But we've also had some really interesting conversations around like where this all started, what all happened. And I think if you're open, let's even start there of, let's start with Vegas. Bean GillSure. Yeah. So 2012 is where the bulk of my story begins. I guess, um, you know, 2012 was. And hope remains the worst year of my life. That year in April, I left my ex-husband after he beat me up for the first and last time. You know, and then a couple of months later, my dad left our family, and that was decades in the making, but still really hard to go through on that day. And then two weeks later, I was in Vegas on vacation. Woke up on Friday the 13th and we were supposed to go to the pool that day. I, you know, went over to the window, open the curtain, saw that it was raining. I walked back to the bed and those four steps that I took would be the last four steps that I would take on my own. As I got into the bed, I experienced the most excruciating pain I've ever felt in my low back. Um, the pain was like a 20 out of ten. Very, very bad. And then I couldn't move my right leg. So as I lay there trying to move both my legs, only my left leg was moving. And then a couple of minutes later, it went prickly from my hip to my toes and like a kind of motion. And I was left paralyzed from the waist down. Within ten minutes.  Dawn TaylorOkay. For you. For anyone listening. Hear that for a second? Like, trauma, like crazy. Probably finally on this trip, wanting to, like, rejuvenate, have some fun, find some laughter. And you literally go from standing and find to go to the pool to paralyzed in ten minutes. So, what happened? I mean, the medical reason for what happened.  Bean GillI mean, my story is super long and complex. And so if you want to hear the full thing, you can go to rambling with ReYu. That's our podcast, episode one. Um, but I left with a misdiagnosis of conversion disorder because they couldn't find anything diagnostically or physically wrong with me while I was in Vegas. And so, that condition basically means that you're so stressed out that your brain tells your body to shut down. Now, given my year and also the 30 prior to it, it made sense. Back then, I couldn't talk to you like this. I wasn't able to communicate my feelings. I could not speak my truth. I buried everything inside plastic, a smile on my face and said, ”I'm fine. Everything's fine.” And it clearly was not. Um, but one of the blessings of this misdiagnosis is that it forced me to see a psychologist and still see her to this day. Just saw her last week. And it's been one of, like I said, one of the biggest blessings because she taught me how to communicate. She taught me how to love myself. She taught me how to work through all of the trauma I've gone through and am going through and will go through because that's what life is.  Dawn TaylorYeah. Oh. Preaching to the choir. Why you reckon we bonded in that, in a weird way of like, yeah, life's been hard, but we both have fought really hard to be where we are.  Bean GillYes, we have. And then I didn't get my official diagnosis until three months after I was paralyzed. And my official diagnosis is transverse myelitis at t10 T11, which basically means inflammation of the spinal cord. And it can happen anywhere along your spinal cord. Mine happened at t10 T11, which is at my waist level, so my upper body is unaffected, thankfully.  Dawn TaylorSo, it was a virus that just hit your spinal cord and caused this?  Bean GillYes.  Dawn TaylorSo I know people from the outside listening might think, “Okay, well, it's a virus. Can't you just take pills for that or antibiotics and you're fine again?” Bean GillNo, no. It's not that simple. The fact of the matter is, like our bodies are super complex, super, super complex. And the virus that paralyzed me, I believe it was the Epstein-Barr virus. EBV is super common. If you've ever had mono, you have it, right. Millions of billions of people have it. And there's many different strains of it too. Just most of the time it lays dormant in your organs and it feeds off of excess heavy metals and excess hormones. Um, those lucky ones like me, when we'll get to stage four. So stage four is when this virus senses a spike in your cortisol level, which is your stress hormone. And when it senses that spike, that's when it says to itself, “Now's my chance to go attack the central nervous system.” and it will attack either your brain or your spinal cord. And for me, I'm just like, “Man, like you couldn't attack something less vital, like my fat cells or something?”  Dawn TaylorCan we manipulate this? Like we signed off on the design of this body, right?  Bean GIllI have beef to pick with this engineer who signed off on this. Dawn TaylorOh, that's so funny. Dawn TaylorYou walk in. Can I ask, how old were you when this happened? Bean GillI was 30. Dawn TaylorSo 30 years old and all of a sudden, I mean, no different than someone getting in a car accident and all of a sudden being paralyzed. What were the biggest other than the obvious? I mean, like, I have to learn how to work a wheelchair and I have to figure that out. What were, like, the big stigmas and the hidden parts of it that nobody ever talked to you about or explained to you that would come with this diagnosis and new health issue? Bean GillOh man, how much time do we have? Dawn TaylorMuch as you have.  Bean GillFirst and foremost would be like the attitudes, the attitudinal barriers that people with disabilities face. Of course, the physical barriers, right. Stairs, snow, whatever. But the attitudinal barriers is what really kind of took me by surprise. The judgment, the pity, the inspiration. You know? Dawn TaylorCan you explain that? Because you and I've talked about inspiration porn. It makes both of us very angry.  Bean GillIt is. It's basically, you know, people coming up to you in the grocery store and saying, “Oh, my gosh, it's so good to see you out and about. It's great to see you out here.” And it's just like, so, you know, in the beginning, those kind of comments would destroy me. I would leave. I would want to go home. I would cry. I would feel less than. Now, I flip it back on them and, oh, my God, they let you out. They let you out. Did somebody congratulate you and give you an award for brushing your teeth this morning? Let me do that person today. Dawn TaylorThat's awesome. And it's like, how do you feel? Does that make you feel good?  Bean GillNo, no, it doesn't. But people say these things not to intentionally hurt somebody else, but to make themselves feel better because a lot of people don't know how to interact with people with disabilities. They don't know how to talk to them. They don't know what to do. And so they say what they are programmed to say, which comes from media and the media uses the medical model of disability, which is, “Oh, these poor people,  they're invalids and they can't do anything. Let's call them vegetables. Right? Like, I just can't. It drives me absolutely bonkers. Um, like, do we need help? Sure. Sometimes. And do some people need help all the time? Yeah, they do. But that doesn't make them any less worthy of dignity and respect. So that's the biggest thing. And then add on being Indian, right? Layer of cultural stigmas and discrimination in my culture is If you have a disability, you are thought to bring shame upon your family. And, like my culture is one of the most toxic cultures because it's like everybody has to make sure our family looks perfect. If our family doesn't look perfect and the eyes of the community, we have failed. And so I'm here to point out all the imperfections in everybody's family.  Dawn TaylorI have a lot of people in my world, from clients to friends that are in your culture, and it is 100% that.  Bean GillYeah. And it's just like nobody's perfect. So where are these expectations coming from? Yeah, Colonialism from the British. That's where they come from. But I digress.  Dawn TaylorIt's okay. So for someone who is sitting back and going like, “Oh, I think this is me, I've been the one who's treated someone this way.” Let's dive into misconceptions. So if you have, if you looked at the title of this episode, you realize we're diving in, we're getting right to the root of this. Let's talk misconceptions.  Bean GillThe biggest one for both males and females with spinal cord injuries is can you have sex? And if you're on a dating app or you're single and you're trying to meet somebody, that's one of the first questions you get. And it's just like, I get it. People want to know. People are curious, right? So that's why I'm open about these things because I want to dispel a lot of this stuff. Um, but yeah, most people can and you know, there's different ways of doing things. If you don't have any sensation, there's different parts of your body that do become erogenous. And that's different for each person because our bodies are so complex and actually very, very smart, right? Um, but yeah, that's one of the biggest questions that most people have, and we addressed that in season one of Push. My friend Brittany, her and her husband, he's able bodied, she's not. They do a video of the sex positions that they use and they're fully clothed, but they talk about and they show how they have sex. And you know, a lot of people want to know. So I'm glad she did it.  Dawn TaylorThat's awesome. Bean GillYeah. But there's just like there, that's one of the biggest things. And then there's also a lot of taboo around that, too. Right? And you know, I have had that conversation before as well of, we need to erase the taboo ness around pleasure and intimacy because we all want it. We deserve it. We need to have it. And it's more than just sex. You can find pleasure and intimacy in the foods you eat and the clothes you wear in the activities you do. So, just kind of breaking those down and giving people permission to explore these different things and different avenues and also breaking down their own. Like biases as to what sex is and what pleasure and intimacy means to them.  Dawn TaylorSo, what are some other taboo topics around paralysis and being in a wheelchair that people aren't, that we need people to be aware of? Bean GillSure. I mean, bodily functions. Right? So, a lot of people think, “Oh, you have a spinal cord injury or you can't walk. Oh, that's too bad.” But it's so much more than that. Like, our spinal cord controls our whole body. And a big part of that is temperature regulation, also bowel and bladder function. And I lost bowel and bladder immediately after I was paralyzed. And, as most people do. Um, and then so, you know, you're now using a catheter to pee, right? And to go to the bathroom, like, to poop. It's called digital stimulation and that's basically sticking your finger up your butt and stimulating the rectum for the poop to come down and out. And, you know, we talk about it openly now because. we're just so sick and tired of being made to feel ashamed of how we have to deal with our bodily functions. Every single living being on this planet, even amoebas, shit. So, why are we made to feel shameful and dirty and insecure about how we do it? So, that's why we're here, to dispel all these myths and to talk about these things so that they become normal, right? Like incontinence, like, so I can feel when I have to pee and when I have to poop, but I can't hold it. My sphincters don't work. And so when I need to pee, like, I need to pee now and you know. In the very beginning, again, if I peed myself, that would ruin my day. I would go home. I would cry, I would be mad. I would feel sorry for myself. Now, I'm just prepared for it, right? Like I'll wear pull ups. I will have extra pants on me all the time, extra underwear, all the stuff simply because this is a part of my life. And, if I could do something to fix it, trust me, I would.  Dawn TaylorIsn't it interesting? It's being in a wheelchair. There's the obvious disability piece, right? That someone can look at you and go, “Oh, yeah, okay, that makes sense.” Listening, right? Like, even I didn't know a lot of this. And I'm like, Thank you, thank you for sharing because I'm a curious human. And also it's like, okay, that makes more sense to things, right? But I've often said, like, I was at a lunch meeting the other day and if I get a tickle on my throat, my sphincter on the other end doesn't work. So I don't have my upper sphincter on my, over my stomach, right? So if I get a tickle on my throat because of being on life support, because of the brain aneurysm, I can't just clear my throat or cough or drink and have the tickle go away. I projectile vomit like a party trick. It's the dumbest thing ever. And I've literally been walking through a grocery store with someone who just reached over calmly and grabbed like a box of crackers and just opened it and peeked into it and closed it and set it in my cart. Oh, like more times than you can imagine. I've had to do things like this or a bag of chips or a coffee cup or whatever. And I was at a lunch meeting and I just, like, I have to push on my throat. Like I have to literally, like, shove my fingers in between that little V piece and find where the tickle is and actually, like push my throat to scratch it. It's literally like, I have to scratch that, right? Yeah. And they're looking at me like, “What the hell are you doing?” And I'm like, My eyes are watering and I'm like, “I'm trying to not throw up on your face. Like, I just need you to know this.” Like, because, if this comes out, it's like a 1980s horror movie and it goes, Oh, my husband literally measured it like eight feet one time. Like, I like no, it's like projectile forceful vomiting. Oh, yeah. It's hilariously bad. But it was interesting because after I was done, he was like. “Just so you know, that didn't look super weird. Like if you've ever doubted yourself in public when you've had to do that,” he goes, “It just felt like you were checking your neck or your throat.” Like, it wasn't like this big obvious like, what the hell's going on situation. I just wanted you to know that. And I was like, “You know what? Thank you. Thank you for telling me that.” But is this weird? Yeah. Covid was fun, by the way, when every, like, cough meant you were going to murder someone. But it is a weird disability, and it's a complication that I now have had to deal with for the last 25 years that most people would never have to deal with and have no idea. And it's it always makes me cringe but laugh when a new client comes to see me and I'm like, “Just a heads up, this happens and I might have to get up and go puke and come back.” I'm okay. And I'm like, Oh my word. “Like, it's such a pain in the ass.” But it's just part of my reality. And I wish I don't know if I've ever really talked about that as being like one of my biggest frustrations because it happens everyday. Right. It's just this weird thing that I have to deal with, right? Yeah,  It's these, like, hidden little complications that and that so many of us have that nobody talks about.  Bean GillAnd it's because of that. Like, I need to appear perfect, right? Like, I used to be a perfectionist and a people pleaser. And so, like, I've really had to dismantle all of that in myself to be like, “No, I am who I am and my body is the way it is. And I will always strive to be as healthy as I can.” That will always be my goal and my trajectory in life. But what I'm dealing with is my reality. And it's, I'm not alone in that. And so by sharing it, like, first of all, we created a huge community, right? Because now people don't feel alone, nor do they feel shameful or embarrassed of these things that all of us deal with. Yeah, it's important to talk about it and to destigmatize these things.  Dawn TaylorIt is so important. And that's why that's why I was like, “Hey, do you want to come on my podcast and talk about this?”  Bean GillYes, yes, I do want to talk about this.  Dawn TaylorSo are there any other big, I don't know,. You know, those curiosity things that people like, the stigmas that people put on you?  Bean GillYes. Okay. So another one was specifically with spinal cord injury is, people are like, “Oh, you're paralyzed. Oh, okay. So you can't feel anything. You can't move anything. Right?” That's what most people assume. But actually, the majority of people can feel and they can move. There is definitely a percentage of the population that cannot and I will not distract from them. They definitely can't feel, can't move anything, but the majority of us can. And so we need to, like, dispel that to that. Like, “Oh, you're paralyzed, you can't do anything.” That's not, that's not true. And then also, within the spinal cord injury world, your diagnosis is either complete or incomplete and have such a big beef with these words because so many people put so much of their identity on words. And what it means is what it's supposed to mean is a complete injury. People think your spinal cord has been severed completely in complete meaning and completely. But what it actually is, is the doctor will stick their finger up your butt. If you clench, you're incomplete. If you don't clench, you're diagnosed complete. Basically your sphincter function. But like I said, they wrap their– Dawn TaylorOkay. Can we pause on that for a sec?  Bean GillYes.  Dawn TaylorThey seriously determine your level of paralysis based on your asshole. Bean GillNot the level. The level is determined basically, like where your injury is. Yes, complete versus incomplete is they stick their finger up your butt and you clench or you don't clench. It's archaic.  Dawn TaylorThat is. Sorry. Like I'm blown away at that.  Bean GillYep. Dawn TaylorIs that like, on any level? How is that okay? Bean GillBecause it was okay 50 years ago. It was okay 80 years ago. And these are the things that don't change. In 1920, there were researchers who said the central nervous system can regenerate. Those researchers were laughed at by the general research community. They were right. They were right. And these other people are the reason that this whole stigma is here is because they were closed minded. They couldn't see what these other people were seeing and their ego stopped them from opening their minds to what is actually possible. Our brain is very plastic. If you can learn to brush with your left hand, guess what that is? Neuroplasticity, you're learning so you can reconnect your brain to your body. You can do all these things because our brain is incredibly complex and incredibly intelligent.  Dawn TaylorIt is. So do you find and maybe this is super controversial and you can answer it or not, but I find and I had this conversation this morning with a client that, it's very hard to fight for yourself. It is very hard to step up and actually say, “No, I'm not okay, settling with where I am.” Do you find that in your community as well, that a lot of people will just curl up and die and be like, “Nope, this is my diagnosis and I'm done.” Bean GillYeah. Straight answer. Yes. And it's because. Okay, so people with disabilities are the biggest minority in the world. There's over a billion of us, right? And disabilities don't discriminate. You can be from any walk of life. You can be any size, any color, have as much money or have zero money, and you can end up with a disability. So there's such a vast array of people. And what I have seen through my last 11 years of living with a disability is that most people are sheep, right? Most people are followers, they are not leaders. And these followers will listen to these experts who are typically able bodied people about what they can or cannot do with their disabled bodies and the limiting beliefs from the healthcare system, from the media, from cultural stuff will get placed on these people and then they will start to believe it. They will start to live those limiting beliefs and they will stay within those confines of those limiting beliefs. I was there. I trusted my health care professionals. I actually lost all of my own knowledge being an x-ray tech working out since I was 12 years old. I forgot all of that and put all my trust in my health care professionals. Did they help me? Yeah. Did they help me? To the best of their ability? No. And it wasn't until I started taking true ownership of my recovery journey that I started that. That's when I started seeing actual growth and actual recovery. Because it is up to you. And now being in the role that I'm in now, like I get asked many times, “Do you think I'm going to walk again?” And my answer is always, “Do you think you'll walk again? Because if you think you will, you will. If you think you won't, you won't. It doesn't matter what I think.” But yes, I believe everybody can walk again because that's literally my business, right? You know? . Dawn TaylorNo, and thank you for saying that, because it's, I talk all the time about one of my one of my biggest whys behind why I do what I do is trying to eradicate this bullshit belief that there's a socially acceptable level of broken. And that's just as good as we're going to get. Yeah, no. You're just always going to struggle with anxiety and you're always going to struggle with depression and you can't actually heal and you can't actually. And I'm like, “No. Fuck that.” Excuse my language, but fuck that. Like because so many people have bought into it and they've just settled in.  Bean GillAnd to these people, I say disrupt the system, ask your doctors, question them, do not take what they say as to be the definitive answers because they don't know. And now, I mean, I've been told that I'm a difficult patient and said, “Yeah, I'm going to make you work for all that money you're making.” Dawn TaylorThat's awesome.  Bean GillI'm not going to believe everything you say. I'm going to ask to see the research papers. I'm going to ask to see all these things. And so now I had a terrible situation with a women's clinic here in Edmonton. And when I went there, the doctor, without even making eye contact with me, she has a clipboard and she comes into the room. She's like, “Hi.” She's like, “Okay, so you have transverse myelitis, okay? So you can't move and you can't feel, okay.” And then I was like. “Um, excuse me. Hi. I'm actually a human being sitting here.” and these are the things I actually said to her, and I said, “I can feel and I can move. I can't feel hot, cold or pain below my level of injury, but I can feel and I can move.”  And then she goes on to say, “Okay, so go ahead and tell me all of the things you can't do.” And I said, “All right. But before I do that, I'm going to ask you.” And I opened up my phone and I open up my notes page and I said, “You tell me all the things that you can't do. Have you climbed Mount Everest? Are you an Olympic swimmer? Are you a marathon runner? Are you a mountain climber? Are you an archaeologist? So go ahead. Tell me all the things you can't.”. And she looked at me and I held eye contact with her for like a minute and said, “How does that make you feel? Do you feel good about yourself?” I'm like, imagine how that makes all of these other people with disabilities feel when you don't even make eye contact with them and you assume these things and then you ask them to talk about all of their limitations. And I will say that to every single doctor, you know, I will be joined by anybody. I'm not scared of anybody. Don't care how many letters you have behind your name. If you're a human being, you're on the same level as me, man. And you sit down when you talk to me. That's my attitude. Because like, you have to write like, what do these people know what you've read in textbooks, what the what big pharma has taught you?  Dawn TaylorOh, right there.  Bean GillI get very passionate about this because it's so frustrating. I've said to him, I've said to one of my doctors before, “Okay, remind me again how long you've had your spinal cord injury for.” Oh, you know I don't have one. I was like, “Oh, okay. And so tomorrow you have a spinal cord injury. Are you going to accept the advice that you're giving me today?” And then they usually break eye contact and said “Absolutely not. You're not going to. You're going to use all of your money. You're going to use all of your resources to find the best therapies around the world to help you. But why are you going to stop your patients from doing that to.” Go home and reflect on that. It's tiring having to be this person to question everything, to, you know, educate constantly. But if we don't do it, these stigmas continue, these stereotypes continue and we will not disrupt the system. Dawn TaylorOh, and it's, you know, it's funny, as I was just sitting here, as you were talking and thinking like what stigmas and stereotypes did I think? 1.4s Growing up of someone in a wheelchair. From watching TV, from watching movies, from just life and people talking. I always for some reason, and I don't know why. Because like, I grew up with Terry Fox, right, Like, and those sorts of things. But it's like. I always had a stigma that in order to be in a wheelchair and have a physical disability, you also had to have a mental disability. Bean GillThat's a big one Dawn TaylorRIght? That those two were intertwined. And sometimes, sometimes they are. Bean GillSometimes they are. Dawn TaylorRight? But it's like, it's like when someone who doesn't speak English and someone talks to them and they just think if they talk louder, they'll understand them. Bean GillYeah. Dawn TaylorAnd I think that as society we need to human better, like so much better And we do. We need to step up and actually get curious and go, “Hey, you know what? I don't understand your culture. I don't understand what it's like to be in a wheelchair. I don't understand what it's like to fill in the blank. Let me learn.” Yeah, let me learn so that I can human better with you.  Bean GillYeah. It's creating those safe spaces for these conversations to be had. Right. And like, as people with disabilities, as annoying as it is, we are the ones that have to go out into the able bodied world and show people where normal people do. We're regular people. Whether we have an intellectual disability or not, we are still regular people who deserve respect and dignity. So disability etiquette is something that I talk about a lot, right? Because like, we need to perpetuate that and it's something just as simple as making eye contact with somebody.  Dawn TaylorOkay. So give us some disability etiquette, okay? Give us some like, because I know like even when we went out for lunch, right, it was like it's a different thought of like, “Oh, we need to pick a restaurant that's really easy, that doesn't have stairs, that has space between tables.” Right? All those things. But yeah. What are some like, top disability etiquette things that people can walk away with? Bean GillSome easy, easy, easy ones. First and foremost, making eye contact, right? So if you see you're walking down a mall or the airport or you're in the movies or you're somewhere and you see somebody with a disability, most people's innate reaction is to look away. Most people. But then we as people with disabilities feel ignored. We feel like we're not here, we're transparent, like you cannot see me. Do I not take up space? And I'm not worthy of taking up this space. So make eye contact. Just look at them. Crack a smile, right? Even if you're wearing a mask, you can still tell when somebody's smiling at you. Oh, that's all it takes is eye contact and maybe a head nod or something. Right. Now, that person like, to you in your day, a blip in the radar. Not even a blip. Right to that person. They now feel seen. And the three most basic things that humans need are to feel seen, to be heard and to be loved. That's it. And so simple. Simple. Make eye contact. Okay. Second, talk to them. If you want to talk to them, talk to them. But there's certain ways to talk to people, right? So one, of course, do not ever, never ask anybody, “Hey, what's wrong with you?” Don't ask them that. Dawn TaylorWhat? That's not appropriate. Bean GillBut a lot of people will. Because they don't know the language to use. And this is also like a very gray area of whether you should ask somebody about their disability story. Because, a lot of people it is very traumatic and a lot of people don't want to talk about the most traumatic incident in their life over and over, over and over again to complete strangers. However, totally, a lot of us are okay with it, too, right? So many of us don't mind sharing our stories. We don't mind telling people what happened. We're at the point now where we can make fun of it. We can laugh it off, however, so just be aware that you might run into some people who are super grumpy and don't want to talk to you and respect that as well.  Dawn TaylorSo what is the right language to use?   Bean GillOkay. So, generally you can say, you know, you see somebody using a mobility device, you could be like, “Hey, like, I see you using a mobility device. Would you mind telling me a little bit more about it?” Or if you see a parent with a child with a disability can be like, “Hey, like, I see your kid has a disability? I would love to learn more about my community and I love learning about people. Would you mind sharing your story with me?”

Content Warning: In this episode, we discuss some topics that listeners may find difficult such as life-threatening illnesses.  Why you would want to listen to this episode…Sam Alexandra Rose’s life was forever changed when she was diagnosed with not one, but three different illnesses. Yet, instead of letting these cancers derail her and take her life on a tailspin, she chose to define her life on her terms. As proud as she is for being a cancer survivor, she is many other things as well, being an accomplished writer, avid charity supporter and a dear friend to those around her. Today, Sam shares her story with Dawn on how she’s learned to not just live alongside her illnesses, but rise above them, too. Who this forFor those of us living without life-threatening illnesses, it can be difficult to fully empathize with any family members or friends who do. This episode is for those who wish to know what it’s like for people like them, and how just like you and me, not much has changed in how they live life. They still have needs, wants and aspirations, and this episode is for those who wish to be more receptive and sensitive to their loved ones. About Dawn TaylorDawn Taylor is the professional ass-kicker, hope giver, life strategist, trauma specialist, and all-around badass. Dawn's journey into helping others heal began when she took her personal recovery from the trauma she experienced in her life into her own hands. While at times unconventional, Dawn’s strategic methods have helped hundreds heal from traumas such as issues related to infidelity,  overcoming addiction,  working through PTSD from sexual, emotional, and physical abuse, as well as helping cult survivors thrive. Dawn’s work has empowered entrepreneurs, stay-at-home moms, and CEOs alike to be superheroes in their own lives. Having completed thousands of hours of training from many professional programs, including the Robbins Madanes Training Institute, Dawn’s blunt honesty will challenge your thinking, broaden your awareness, and help you achieve the outstanding results you are worthy of.Connect with Dawn here at The Taylor Way: Consultation Call | Website | Facebook | Instagram | LinkedInGet to know Dawn on a deeper level through her book! Order HereP.S. I Made It, is a powerful story that grabs you through its lack of pretension and honesty. Every page reveals another layer of curious wonder at both Dawn’s life and the power of hope that moves within each of us. Dawn’s hope is that you use this book as a resource to deal with your struggles. Share it with someone who needs it. We all want to feel like someone understands what it’s like to suffer through something and – come out the other side. She describes her life as “horrifically beautiful and beautifully horrific. Guest BioSam Alexandra Rose is a writer from Northamptonshire, UK. She is a three-time cancer survivor with a rare genetic condition, and a PhD student researching the connection between creative writing and cancer survivorship. Her poetry and prose has been published in over 70 literary magazines and anthologies, and her memoir “Gut Feelings: Coping With Cancer and Living With Lynch Syndrome” was released in January 2021. She works as a patient and public involvement manager for a bowel disease research charity.Guest Social LinksEmail - writer.sam@outlook.comWebsite - https://writersam.co.ukInstagram - https://instagram.com/writersamrFacebook - https://facebook.com/writersamrTwitter - https://twitter.com/writersamrThe CMRRD book on Amazon - https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B0CH23XH52Thanks for listening!Thanks so much for listening to our podcast! If you enjoyed this episode and think that others could benefit from listening, please share it using the social media buttons on this page. Do you have some feedback or questions about this episode? Leave a comment in the section below!Follow the podcastIf you want to receive new podcast episodes automatically, you can follow us on Apple Podcasts or in your favourite podcast app.Please leave us an Apple Podcasts reviewRatings and reviews from our listeners are extremely valuable to us and greatly appreciated. They help our podcast rank higher on Apple Podcasts, which exposes our show to more awesome listeners like you. If you have a minute, please leave an honest review.Views Expressed, Legal and Medical DisclaimerThis podcast (including any/all site pages, blog posts, blog comments, forums, videos, audio recordings, etc.) is not intended to replace the services of a physician, nor does it constitute a doctor-patient relationship. Information is provided for informational purposes only and is not a substitute for professional medical advice. You should not use the information on this podcast for diagnosing or treating a medical or health condition. If you have or suspect you have an urgent medical problem, promptly contact your professional healthcare provider. Any application of the recommendations in this podcast/website is at the listener/reader's discretion. The views and opinions expressed are those of guests and do not necessarily reflect the opinion or policy of Dawn Taylor, The Taylor Way and or its Associates. The before mentioned are not liable for any direct or indirect claim or loss.TranscriptDawn TaylorI am your host, Dawn Taylor. And today, I get to go talk to the lovely Sam. So, Sam is. What is Sam? Sam, by the way, has the greatest accent on the planet. Sam Alexandra Rose is a writer from Northamptonshire, UK. I'm really trying to read that, right, but it's an amazing name. Um, she is a three-time cancer survivor that has a rare genetic condition. And a PhD student researching the connection between writing creative or creative writing, sorry, and cancer survivorship, which in and of itself is crazy. Her poetry has and her prose have been published in over 70 literary magazines and anthologies, and her memoir, Gut Feelings: Coping with Cancer and Living with Lynch Syndrome was released in January 2021. So, if you want to find any of these things or access to Sam, please check out our show notes and I'll mention that again at the end. But, check out our show notes because you want to follow her. She works as a patient and public involvement manager for a bowel disease research charity, and she is here today to open up and to talk about a topic we wish people talked about and honestly, something that both of us have dealt with and are dealing with is - but we should be dead. And how do you live in that situation? So, Sam, welcome to the show. Sam Alexandra RoseHi, Thanks for having me. Dawn TaylorYou are so welcome. So what do you wish people talked about?  Sam Alexandra RoseI really wish that people talked more about the realities of cancer survivorship and living with the genetic condition and how that makes us, just the ways that we try to cope with that reality. Um, in terms of, as you said, how long am I going to be here for? Um, being just so, um. Uh, what's the word? I've lost my words already! Being so. Oh, sorry. The word is totally gone.  Dawn TaylorThat's okay. Sam Alexandra RoseIronically, the word word was impulsive. Yeah. And impatient about everything. And, yeah, just trying to kind of merge the two worlds of, like, the normal everyday world and the medical world that a lot of people don't know about. Dawn TaylorOh, 100%. So my husband and I often joke that we live in a town called Realistic Denial because we still have to live in reality of the fact that we have conditions that could kill us tomorrow, that we are living on borrowed time, all of these things. But, we also have to live in this weird state called denial because we still have to be human and we still have to get out of bed every day and go to work and function and live and not live in that identity. So, let's start at the beginning for you. So, three-time cancer survivor. Talk to us about that. How old were you? When did you get diagnosed? What is it you were diagnosed with? You know, all the fun. Sam Alexandra RoseOkay. So I was first diagnosed with bowel cancer or colon cancer at the age of 22 back in 2010. And after I was diagnosed with bowel cancer, my consultant was like, “Well, you know, why has this happened to you so young?” We need to do some genetic testing on me, on my parents to find out what was going on. And it turned out that my parents have a genetic condition called Lynch Syndrome, which actually isn't very rare. But the thing is that a lot of people, apparently around 95% of people don't actually know that they have it, which is crazy to think that people are wandering around with this gene. Essentially, it increases your cancer risk for various types of cancer. Mostly it's colon cancer and it can increase your risk of colon cancer to up to 80%. Dawn TaylorHoly cow. That is a big number.  Sam Alexandra RoseIt is.  Dawn TaylorAnd the majority of people have no idea. Sam Alexandra RoseNo, no. A lot of people probably haven't even heard of it. Even those that have it, probably. Dawn TaylorSo okay, so really quick, because I'm like, “What?” I could have this and I know about it. How do you even get tested for this? Sam Alexandra RoseSo if your family has a high number of instances of people with bowel cancer or different other types of cancer, so, it's bowel cancer, um, like gynecological cancers like womb cancer and some others as well. It kind of depends on which genes are involved. Um, but I, actually, uh, when I went one step further and so what happened to me was I inherited lynch syndrome from both of my parents, which is a really rare thing to do. Um, and actually, they estimate that only 1 in 1,000,000 people have this condition. So what it is, is you inherit Lynch syndrome from both of your parents. So, it's like the odds of getting two people with Lynch syndrome together to begin with, who then have a kid who then has the bad luck of inheriting Lynch syndrome, not just from one parent, because you could potentially not inherit it from any of the parents like my sister did. She doesn't have Lynch syndrome or what I have at all. Um, but yeah, so what I ended up with was something called CMRD or constitutional mismatch repair deficiency, which is a bit of a mouthful. Um, but as you can imagine, if Lynch syndrome increases your cancer risk, then having it from both parents increases your cancer risk even further. And that's, that also involves things like brain cancer and brain tumors. And we found out actually that my brother also had CMRD, but we didn't realize at the time. So he died when he was 16. I was one year old back in 1989, so we know now that that was because of CMRD as well.  Dawn TaylorWow. Okay. There are so much we could unpack there. I can't imagine being your parents. And knowing that genetically, this is something that they gave you. And I don't mean that in a blame or anything like that, but I know my husband and myself like both of us having conditions that were genetic. That was one of our reasons. And when we realized we couldn't have kids on our own, we didn't want to do a surrogate. We didn't want to use our DNA because we were like, “I would never want to give this to somebody.” Right? And so, like, there's so many. Okay. I don't know where you're willing to go with this, but there's so many, so many directions.  Sam Alexandra RoseI’ll go anywhere.  Dawn TaylorSo, okay, so let's start there. Right off the bat, like, how have your parents dealt with the fact? That they know that it was like their genetics that has not caused this, but do you know what I mean? Yeah. How did they deal with that? Sam Alexandra RoseI mean, we don't really talk about that side of it too much as a family. But, I do know that they do feel some kind of guilt, which of course isn't rational or anything, you know, because nobody can help what they pass on. But yeah, I think they do feel like a bit of guilt over that. But it's not, it's not really something that we talk about or dwell on too much. I think we just, we take things in our stride. Whatever happens, happens, you know, we just get on with it. Really?  Dawn TaylorYeah. And so for your sister who doesn't have this. Does she live in fear of it at all? Is there a way she could develop it at some point? Is she at higher risk or she's just healthy and good?   Sam Alexandra RoseDhe's just fine, which is I mean, she's got two children as well, which is great because it means that  she didn't get it and therefore she didn't pass it on to my niece and nephew as well.  Dawn TaylorYeah, which is wild. So what has your journey looked like having Lynch syndrome? You got cancer very young, right? Incredibly young. And what has your journey continued to look like?  Sam Alexandra RoseYeah, so I had that first cancer. I had my entire colon removed, which meant I had a stoma. I had, you know, like a colostomy bag for five months, just a temporary one. And then what they can do is always think that the science of it is quite cool. They can do a reversal in some cases. So, what they did is they kind of put the stoma kind of back in essentially, and they make a makeshift large intestine out of a part of your small intestine, and that learns to like absorb fluid in the way that a large intestine would, which I think is pretty, pretty clever. So, yeah, it's like essentially plumbing, plumbing me back together. So I've got, I'm kind of normal again. Or it's normal. Normal as I can be. Um, so, so, yeah. So that was in 2010 and then 2011 had the reversal, later in 2011, we had the genetic testing. And then that meant that we, what I had to have all kinds of tests every year because I'm so much higher risk. So, it's things like something called a flexible sigmoidoscopy, which is similar to a colonoscopy. But, because I don't have a colon anymore, obviously it doesn't go quite that far up. So, it's like a mini colonoscopy, really. Um, I have a gastro escapee every year, which is the camera down the throat and into the stomach and looking at the small bowel. Um, I had a CT scan once a year for just, like five years. I think that was just, like, related to surgery more than anything else, and a capsule endoscopy I have at the moment. And these, that sort of came later. But, the capsule endoscopy is when you swallow like a little camera, um, like, like a little sort of tablet and you wear a recording device that speaks to it and the camera travels down your throat and into your stomach and small bowel and eventually, like during the day, you like, poop it out. Basically. they don't want it back. They're very clear they don't want it back. Dawn TaylorThat is really funny.  Dawn TaylorSo, yeah, it's like a less invasive way to have a look at, like, your small bowel and kind of the parts that the colon can't can't find. Um. So I had several years of all of these tests and kind of the fear of recurrence that comes with it and all of that sort of stuff. And then in 2018, I had my annual routine gastroscopy. Around the same time, I had an MRI to look at a completely unrelated problem. I was getting recurring abscesses, um, down below to put it politely. So, I had an MRI. Um, but when they looked at the MRI, they sort of, we never heard about the abscesses again, basically because what they saw was a problem. I can't exactly remember how they described it, but they said there was a problem with the lining of my womb. And all of this kind of happened at the same time. And the gastrostomy that I went to, they said that they found a polyp. They marked it as urgent, a polyp, I should say. It's just like a little sort of growth, like a tumor type thing that may or may not be cancerous. Some polyps are just just benign. Um, but they said that they found it and they sent it off for testing marked urgent. So, you can already tell. Well, that's not a very good sign. Um, we went on a family holiday, came back to loads of, like, voicemail messages from the hospital. Can you call us? And essentially I got two. I kind of got two cancer diagnoses within two days of each other, which, as you can imagine, was just absolutely horrendous. Dawn TaylorI can't even imagine.  Sam Alexandra RoseYeah, it was awful. So I had to meet my consultant at the hospital and they said, go meet him on the ward because he isn't in his office where he would normally be because it's not part of his sort of consulting hours which again, bad sign. Um, and he said, “Yeah, you have duodenal cancer.” So the name is a small part of the small bowel. Um, and I was kind of expecting it because they said, you know, the gastrostomy we've taken something with marked it as urgent for testing. So I was weirdly calm about it. Um, yeah, because I was sort of expecting it. What wasn't expecting was the next day at my gynecology appointment for them to say, “You have definitely precancerous and possibly cancerous cells in your womb.” And then they later confirmed that it was cancer. And then they were very surprised that I was relieved that I was that it was early stage cancer because they said, you see the pre-cancer or it's early cancer. And in my head I was thinking, “But what if they're wrong? What if it's actually stage three? Stage four?” You know, your mind just, like, goes into overdrive. Um, so when they said to me, it's early stage cancer, I was like, “Okay, good.” I'm not good. But, you know, they're like, “Wait a sec. What’s wrong with you?”  Dawn Taylor“That reaction's not what we were expecting.”  Sam Alexandra RoseYeah, but it's like, well, whether it's precancerous or it's cancerous, you have to do something about it anyway, So, what difference does it make? So, yeah. And so after that, we, my partner and I went to a fertility consultant to talk about options, and they said that you could have surgery now, like have everything removed, you know, womb, ovaries, because there was a risk of ovarian cancer as well. Uh, do that, do all that now and get it done or there's this other treatment that may or may not work. Um, kind of remember the details of it now. And he, you might want to do this or you might want to hold off surgery if you want to try and, like, get pregnant first or if you want, because we don't have we didn't have biological children. Yeah, well, they said that you could freeze your eggs. Um, but in order to do that, they would be stimulating the ovaries, which could also stimulate the lining of the womb, which could in turn cause the cancer to grow. So, me and my partner kind of immediately both agreed. Well, we don't want to do any of that, you know? Yes, we kind of envisaged ourselves having children at some point. Um, but we were on the same page that we both didn't want to take a risk, so we just said, “Yeah, okay, total hysterectomy. Just do it now. Get rid of everything.” So that's what we ended up doing in September 2018. And then they said, “Once you've recovered from your hysterectomy, we will do a surgery to deal with the duodenal cancer.” And this was all quite a long time coming because that summer was very much two teams kind of fighting over me and trying to decide what they were going to do with me because I was quite an unusual case. And so, in November they did the Whipple surgery, which was removal of the head of the pancreas, the duodenal, because that's where the cancer was, the bile duct and the gallbladder. So, it's quite a big operation. They know they normally do it for pancreatic cancer and it was about an eight-hour surgery. Two hours of that was just, like, dealing with adhesions, you know, when, like, organs get, like, stuck together, they have to prise them apart before they can do anything with them. And that was two days, I think, in the high dependency unit at the hospital, sort of similar to the ICU and then another seven days in a regular ward. So, yeah, really difficult to recover from that. In November. That will be five years ago and I will hopefully be five years cancer-free if nothing happens between now and then.  Dawn TaylorOkay, for starters. Holy shit. Okay, I'm just going to say it because everyone's thinking it. To deal with all of this at such a young age and then dealing with these massive decisions, cancers that are notm like it's very, it's not common to recover from some of these cancers, right?  But then in the middle of that, you're fighting for your own life. You're fighting with, like, “Can I have kids? Can I not have kids?” Making that decision to make that final that you couldn't have both children, right? Like there's so many parts and pieces of this. so many parts. So, before we dive into that, what are the risks or the chances of you getting cancer again?  Sam Alexandra RoseI don't really know. And I try not to think about it too much. Some things you just don't want to Google, I think. Dawn TaylorOh, I can. I can totally see that. I do want to say for anyone who is like, “Okay, how rare is this Lynch syndrome?” What, like, this is crazy. Um, according to the Cleveland Clinic in this state for cancer, Lynch syndrome occurs in approximately 1 in 279 individuals in the United States. So, just think about that number for a second. I'm amazed. I'm amazed that more people aren't being tested for this. But I also know I'm go,ing to talk to my doctor and ask if I can be tested for this, because that's just wild. So, now let's move forward a few years. You're recovering from three cancers in a very short period of time. And now it's time to live again, and some of you and I had talked about in our initial conversation before recording this today was that feeling of the life you thought you were going to have died. And I think anyone who's had any sort of massive health issue, anyone who's had anything in their life not going according to plan, understands very much what that feels like. But, when you're faced with death, it's very different, right? So when you're in a position where you could die in, you're literally fighting for your life with medical treatments. It's hard to live after. It can be incredibly difficult to actually live after. Let's dive into that.  Sam Alexandra RoseI think it's difficult both in the long term and in the short term as well, because you have the long term of maybe life not turning out how you thought it would so for example, not being able to have biological children. But then also you have in the short term just trying to live day to day, especially when, okay, so the cancer may be gone. All three of them, but there's still the yearly testing that I have to have, all those different tests and and more have been added as well because of the CMRD. So I also have now a brain and full body MRI. So ,every six months I have a brain MRI and every year I have a  full body MRI as well. And it's just that living, trying to live day to day when you get an appointment letter through the door saying “Come to see us for an MRI, come to see us for this capsule endoscopy, and also you have to drink bowel prep, which is completely disgusting.” If you haven't had anything like this in Canada, it's awful. Yeah, it's horrible. And that's like a three day affair, right? So you have the bowel prep that you have to drink the day before and then you go to the appointment on the day. And then if you have sedation for your procedure, then you can't, like, drive for 24 hours afterwards. It is basically a three day thing. I'm just remembering when I had one at the beginning of this year, I did the bowel prep and I really wasn't feeling well and I was thinking bowel prep doesn't really usually make me feel this bad. Woke up the next morning. I feel absolutely awful. Gotta go to the hospital, like as soon as I wake up, basically, did a COVID test. I had COVID for the first time and I drank the bowel prep for no reason. Dawn TaylorSorry, I shouldn't laugh, but having been there, I'm like, “Oh my gosh, everybody wants to bowel prep for no reason.” No one.   Sam Alexandra RoseNo. I can laugh about it now, but yeah, just, just remembering that. Yeah,  it's this whole thing of, you know, tests may crop up at any time and say you're just, you're at work, you're just at your desk doing your job, and then you have a phone call, you know, come in, make an appointment or you're waiting for results. And it's just always at the back of your mind. So it's, yeah, the short term and the long term, I think. Dawn TaylorAbsolutely. Have you struggled with letting people close to you? I know one of my struggles was I was so terrified that people would know me or like me or love me, and then I would die. Or that I was too much for people because of health issues, right? Where it was like, you know what, I don't want anyone else to have to be part of this. I don't want anyone else to have to be in the hospital or worrying about me or driving me for tests or surgeries or any of those things. And it, I don't know if this is the correct wording on it, but it almost became like a weapon for me over the years of just, like, holding people at an arm's length. Right, because it did. It really felt like if I let you too close, this is just going to get hurt. And then either you're going to reject me and abandon me down the road or you're going to lose me or something's going to happen and I'm going to get hurt. And that makes no sense. And I don't want to do that.  Sam Alexandra RoseI think I'm really lucky in that my partner and I have been together for a really long time. So we met in 2006 at university, so we'd been together about four years before my first cancer diagnosis. We're still together now, and he's, he's brilliant. Um, but I mean, the thing that upsets me the most, if I think about it too much, is like, what if something does happen again and it's the worst outcome? And then I have to leave him. And that's just the thought of him having to manage with me not being here. That is the most upsetting thing.   Dawn TaylorHas it changed? So my partner and I also, my husband and I have been together since way before the aneurysm, right? And he also is brilliant and stuck it out. You and I both chose very well. But what about with friends?  Sam Alexandra RoseYeah, it's. It's complicated, I think. Um. Sometimes, I think that people were my friends maybe a little bit more while I was unwell. And then once you're kind of okay and you know, well, they think that you're okay and recovered, then there's that drop in attention. And especially after my first diagnosis and my surgery, I spent a few years just feeling so sad about everything that had happened, afraid of what was going to happen next and I guess I really still needed people several years later to check on me and say, “Are you, you know, emotionally okay?” because I was not. But people don't know that, which I guess is what spurs me on to do things like come here and talk to you because people need to know that people who have had cancer or other illnesses, it takes its emotional toll and you've got to check in on people. Dawn TaylorYeah. And I think a lot of the emotional toll isn't immediate. I know for myself it always hits later, right? So I'll recover from whatever I'm going through, say, I'm feeling amazing in April or May typically it's, like, four months later. My cycle is four months and it's like four months later is when I'm like, blah. And I feel like that's when I fall apart and that's when I really, really struggle. And yeah, people that haven't, you know, okay, so this is something interesting because I've had this conversation recently with some friends is if you haven't been through it, yay, glad you haven't dealt with really traumatic health issues, right? But you also just don't understand, like, you don't get it and there's no way you can, but also from the side of the person who's dealing with a health issue. We need to step up and go “This is what I need from you. But part of that is also can you provide that?” Right? Like, do you have the capacity? Do you have the capacity to provide what it is I need in that arena, right? And I've had friends over the years that are phenomenal at the like, “Hey, I need you to call me on like every Friday and be like “Are you alive or are you good?” Right? And they're like “Done.” They'll put it in their calendars and like, that works for them and other people. It's like, “Hey. Can you not ever talk to me about my health? Can every conversation we have nothing to do with my health? Because I really just need to not think about it right now.” And they'll be like, “Yep, absolutely.” To people that go, “Hey. You're not well.” I know when I was doing some really, really heavy treatments about two years ago, I was in Edmonton a lot and people didn't know I was here. There were a few core people in my life that knew I was here, and it was very interesting how one of those, there was one night he called me and he arrives and I was like, “I'm just done now. Like I'm just on my way home.” And he's like, “Come to my house.” And I was like, “No, I don't have the energy.” And he's like, “No.” He's like “We're going to feed you. We're going to tuck you on the couch on a blanket, and you get to just lay there and just not be alone. But we'll ignore you.” And I don't know if I've ever told them how much that meant to me. Right, that it was like, “No, you don't have to show up in any way. You can show up in your pajamas. You can lay there and cry if you need to. Like, we're just going to make sure you're okay.” He's like, “We will take care of you. Like, we will drive you back to your hotel when you're done and you're ready to not be around people. But I just don't want you to be alone tonight.” And I showed up and was like, “Thank you”. There were no expectations of me. I didn't have to choose that. I wanted to eat. I didn't have to, you know, make any decisions. And I did. I literally laid on his couch under a blanket while him and his wife did their thing and their son was tootling around and, you know, I just laid there and watched whatever was on the TV and it felt so safe and I don't know about you, but we often hide how bad it is, and we hide where we're at with our health. So that we never feel like we're too much for people.  Sam Alexandra RoseYeah. And yeah, it's difficult, isn't it? Communicating about health, especially like with people that are close to us, but also people who are that little bit further away. I'm thinking about just like when a colleague says like, “Hi, how are you?” Which should be a completely innocent question, you know, there would be days where like either I'm thinking I don't have the energy to, um, to say, “Yes, I'm fine.” because I'm not fine. I just want to shout at you all the things that are wrong, but at the same time, also I don't have the energy to not lie and to, you know, go into all all of the detail as well. So yeah, it manifests in lots of different ways. But I had a similar friend actually, who let me just go to his house and sort of crashed there because I was at work. It was in 2018, so around the time of um, my second and third diagnoses and I was at work and I got like a phone call or some news or something that upset me. And I talked to my manager and she was like, “Do you want to go home?” And I said, “Yeah.” So instead of going home, I went to, um, or went to a supermarket to pick up some lunch. And then I went to my friend's house and he only lived about 15 minutes away. And he was  like, “Yeah, sure, come over. I'm going to a job interview soon, but you can just hang at my house.” So I went over to his house. I told him a little bit about what was happening. Um, we hung out for a bit and then he went to his job interview and I just sat alone in his house, which, thinking about it now, was just a little bit weird. But I played on his guitar a little bit. I just sort of tried to have a nap on the couch and just waited for him to come home. And then we went to the pub and had a drink. Dawn TaylorRight? it is funny like talking about it and even that night, like it was probably weird that he invited me over to do that, but it felt so good, right? So closing off this area of this because then I want to dive into something more fun in this whole situation or quirky about both of us. For anyone listening who has a friend with a health issue. What do you recommend? What do you recommend for the significant others or the friends of someone who is in a situation like yours or a situation like mine, or dealing with a health issue where there is a lot of like, future fear, current fear, right? And also just like so much unknown, What do you recommend for them on how to support?   Sam Alexandra RoseI think the problem with communication is that sometimes there's a lot of guessing and maybe it's a good idea to just ask the person, like, “Do you want to talk about this? Do you want advice on this? Do you want to be distracted? And should we just talk about something else or do something else?” Um. Especially when like, it's in the thick of it, so like just after surgery or something, when somebody's recovering for something or going through treatment, then, like, sending messages again, this is something that that my friend, the same friend did, sending messages and explicitly saying, “You don't have to reply to this. There's no expectation from my end for you to contribute. I'm just telling you about my day or I'm just checking in. Hope you're okay.” Um, yeah, I think that was really nice. And it's along the similar lines, isn't it? Yeah, Just just come and chill at my house. It's like the text equivalent of that. Dawn TaylorOh, totally. And I think the one thing I would add to it is I had people actually get upset with me for not staying in good enough contact with them. And telling them what was going on and including them in things and incorporating them into that side of my world at that point. And that was really hard, and I remember, after when someone was like, “I heard you were here nonstop for medical treatments.” And I said, “Yeah, I was.” And. It was really interesting. The comment that came out of their mouth shouldn't have shocked me, but it did. They were like, “And you didn't even call me?” And I remember just I was like, “No, no, I didn't.” and they're like, “Well, I thought we were friends.” And I was like, “I'm pretty sure that I was spending my time in medical treatments because my body was shutting down and I felt like I was dying and I didn't have any capacity for people.” Right? I had no capacity for people. And I think that changes on where we draw our energy from, right? As an introvert, it decreased my capacity. As an extrovert. I might increase someone's capacity to be like, I need people more, right? But I think, like, I know a lot of people really struggled with that with me because I've had conversations with people about it where I go internal, I cocoon. So, when I'm going through something, you will stop hearing from me. When I'm going through something, I will not reach out. I will not ask for help. I'm not going to tell you I'm struggling. Like, that's not my natural go to, my natural go to is I just curl completely inward and go, “Okay, now I have to take care of me and I don't actually care who's outside of that.“ Right? And it's not. It's not a rejection of the other person, right? It's not a rejection of you. It's me just trying to protect me in that moment. And so to understand as a friend or a family member, like what is your capacity? What can you handle? And if you don't have the capacity to send out a daily update on how you're doing, right? That's okay. It's okay that you don't have that capacity and I'm not going to ask it of you.  Sam Alexandra RoseBut there's too many people to update anyway on a regular basis.  Dawn TaylorOh, my goodness. There were too many. And, you know, it was interesting the people that were like, “Hey. What do you need right now?” And I'd be like, “Can you just check in on me, like, once a week? Just, like, send a prayer for me? Can you like?” You know, things like that. But I also had a friend that I remember one day there was like this crazy long day of IVs. Like, I was there for almost eight hours. And a friend called and she's like, “Can I just come in like, sit with you?” And I was like, “Yes. Yes you can.” And she just, like, crack jokes. And we laughed and we talked and like, I cried. And she literally just, like, held my hand. And that was the most beautiful thing ever. Because she was like, “Hey, this is what I want to do. Are you okay with that?”  Sam Alexandra RoseAnd that was when somebody comes with an idea of how to to help rather than relying on you Dawn TaylorYeah. “What do you need?” And you're like, “I don't know.” Sam Alexandra RoseExactly. Dawn TaylorAnd my answer often was like, “Coffee. I need a coffee.” And they’d laugh. “Like, that's it? That's all you need?” I was like, “I don't know what else to tell you.” So, now let's fast forward. How has having a diagnosis like that cancer three times knowing you're such at a high risk, right? And all of these things in these shifts. How has it shifted your everyday

Content Warning: In this episode, we discuss some topics that listeners may find difficult such as drug and alcohol addiction.  Why you would want to listen to this episodeMax Larocque has lived most of his life as a fully-functioning addict. Smoking weed and drinking alcohol are things he’s wrestled with behind closed doors, however, he does so without sacrificing his most important priorities, such as work and fitness. However, during a crucial point in his life, Max discovered that as good as he was at hiding things - addiction was still an addiction. Today on the podcast, Max bravely opens up about his struggles and shares with us the steps he took, big and small, to lead him to recovery and take back control of his life. Who this for...Addiction can show up in many different faces and degrees of frequency. It’s not always the same for everyone and everyone who’s gone through it will deal with it in ways unique to them. For those who are curious about how addiction can manifest differently for people, or for those who are seeking out a voice like Max’s when it comes to detailing the road to recovery, this episode is for you.About Dawn TaylorDawn Taylor is the professional ass-kicker, hope giver, life strategist, trauma specialist, and all-around badass. Dawn's journey into helping others heal began when she took her personal recovery from the trauma she experienced in her life into her own hands. While at times unconventional, Dawn’s strategic methods have helped hundreds heal from traumas such as issues related to infidelity,  overcoming addiction,  working through PTSD from sexual, emotional, and physical abuse, as well as helping cult survivors thrive. Dawn’s work has empowered entrepreneurs, stay-at-home moms, and CEOs alike to be superheroes in their own lives. Having completed thousands of hours of training from many professional programs, including the Robbins Madanes Training Institute, Dawn’s blunt honesty will challenge your thinking, broaden your awareness, and help you achieve the outstanding results you are worthy of.Connect with Dawn here at The Taylor Way: Consultation Call | Website | Facebook | Instagram | LinkedInGet to know Dawn on a deeper level through her book! Order HereP.S. I Made It, is a powerful story that grabs you through its lack of pretension and honesty. Every page reveals another layer of curious wonder at both Dawn’s life and the power of hope that moves within each of us. Dawn’s hope is that you use this book as a resource to deal with your struggles. Share it with someone who needs it. We all want to feel like someone understands what it’s like to suffer through something and – come out the other side. She describes her life as “horrifically beautiful and beautifully horrific. Guest BioOur guest is Max Larocque. He has been a fitness coach for a little over 13 years and has been a certified life coach for the last 6 of those years. Max is 2.5 years alcohol free and he has a dog named Lucy who is his entire world.Guest Social LinksWebsite - www.maxlarocquefitness.comInstagram - @maxlarocquefitPodcast - The Squats and Sober Thoughts PodcastDopamine Nation (book recommendation) - https://www.amazon.com/Dopamine-Nation-Finding-Balance-Indulgence/dp/152474672XThanks for listening!Thanks so much for listening to our podcast! If you enjoyed this episode and think that others could benefit from listening, please share it using the social media buttons on this page. Do you have some feedback or questions about this episode? Leave a comment in the section below!Follow the podcastIf you want to receive new podcast episodes automatically, you can follow us on Apple Podcasts or in your favourite podcast app.Please leave us an Apple Podcasts reviewRatings and reviews from our listeners are extremely valuable to us and greatly appreciated. They help our podcast rank higher on Apple Podcasts, which exposes our show to more awesome listeners like you. If you have a minute, please leave an honest review.Views Expressed, Legal and Medical DisclaimerThis podcast (including any/all site pages, blog posts, blog comments, forums, videos, audio recordings, etc.) is not intended to replace the services of a physician, nor does it constitute a doctor-patient relationship. Information is provided for informational purposes only and is not a substitute for professional medical advice. You should not use the information on this podcast for diagnosing or treating a medical or health condition. If you have or suspect you have an urgent medical problem, promptly contact your professional healthcare provider. Any application of the recommendations in this podcast/website is at the listener/reader's discretion. The views and opinions expressed are those of guests and do not necessarily reflect the opinion or policy of Dawn Taylor, The Taylor Way and or its Associates. The before mentioned are not liable for any direct or indirect claim or loss. Transcript  Dawn TaylorI am your host, Dawn Taylor, and today we are going to talk to Max. Max is a personal trainer. He is a dad to a dog. He's like, “Dad? Wait a second.” He is two and a half years alcohol-free. He's had a few lapses with some cannabis, but he's working on that. We are going to dive into life. We are going to dive into where this all started, where this all came from, and really dig into this topic of the fact that alcohol does not discriminate based on your appearance or based on what is showing up on the outside, right? What's going on behind closed doors can be so different. But we're also going to go a little bit deeper on this into what is really going on behind the scenes. He is also a fitness coach that for over 13 years he's owned his own company. He's a partner in a company and he does life coaching within that. So, if you want to contact him like normal, you know that you need to go check out the show notes. We're going to have all of his contact information there and how you can get a hold of him also with any resources we're going to talk about in the show. But let's dive right in. Welcome to the show, Max. Max LarocqueThank you so much for having me, Dawn. I'm excited. It's been a while since I've been on a podcast. Dawn TaylorI was so excited when you were recommended to me because I know this is a topic that people want to talk about. I don't know anyone who does not have someone in their life who is an addict or who was an addict or has dealt with addiction or they are themselves. And I think there's such negative light attached to it, but also just such a lack of understanding and knowing around the whole topic. So, let's dive in. I know I said we're going to just dive right into this. So, let's start with what happened to even guide you to have an addiction. Let's start there.   Max LarocqueSo growing up, my dad was an RCMP officer and he really strived to move up the ranks as fast as he could, which obviously worked out well. My dad was a great provider, and in his interpretation of fatherhood, as long as he was a good financial provider, then that meant that he was a phenomenal parent. So, by no means is there any sort of blame or anything along the lines towards my parents, but the moves and the instability and the things that came with transferring across province to province, all across Canada, I think I moved seven times before I was twelve, was a lot. A lot, yeah, it's definitely festered into a lot of trust issues and things like that. Just because of the fact that I basically had no choice as a kid, if I wanted to stay somewhere, it didn't really matter. We were up and moving and I really had no say in the matter. So there was an aspect of that that was definitely underlying when I first started using cannabis, and a large part of it was kind of also, I can swear right, Dawn? Dawn TaylorOh, 100% Max LarocquePerfect. Quick disclosure on that. I do use the word “fuck” a lot. Dawn TaylorI'm very okay with that word. And this podcast is rated R, so anyone listening, If you're really going to struggle with that word, it's just a word, keep listening because you need this information.  Max LarocqueAnd you know what? I do like to disclose that too. And I've softened up my views on this in the last couple of years because I understand that, again, if your only interpretation of the word “fuck” was from your parent, caregiver, loved one was super angry, maybe that meant something bad was going to happen, then I can understand why people think that the word “fuck” is such a bad word.  Dawn Taylor Absolutely.  Max LarocqueBut to me, it's just a filler word. So if it comes out, I'm not going to apologize. But I do like to give that forewarning just because I've had people misconstrue my messages. Like, “Wow, he's very angry. Why is he so agitated?” And it's really not that. It's just simply that, it's a word that comes out on a very frequent basis, and if I'm passionate about what I'm talking about, it's going to come out more. So, full disclosure, we'll get that one out of the way. But as mentioned with my original usage of cannabis, it was definitely a “fuck you” towards my dad. Because of the fact that my dad started with the RCMP at such a young age, he had a very skewed perception of, to a certain degree, life, because it was a very “This is how I did it, and this is how you're going to do it, and this is how we do it.” And there was a part of me that very much from a resentful standpoint, was kind of like, “Well, fuck you. I'm going to smoke weed, and I'm going to prove to you that I can be successful and I can be this and I can be that.” Just in spite of him. So that definitely stemmed that. Obviously, it escalated quite quickly into full on cannabis and alcohol addiction. So, kind of bit me in the ass a little bit, you could say Dawn Taylorit does that.  Max LarocqueYeah. So dad was kind of right in certain ways.  Dawn TaylorYeah, we won't tell him that. We won't tell him that. So, let's dive into that for a second and just backtrack a minute because I know someone is listening who's like, “Hey, wait a sec, I've moved my kids a million times.” I don't think it's always that it's moving kids a million times is the problem. It's the structure and the certainty that a lot of kids, especially actually need, and they all function very different with it. It's understanding that and then figuring out how to get them some support in that. But you had mentioned that you struggled with the trust as well, and so where did that come from?  Max LarocqueSo, there was two moves specifically, one of which when we moved to Ottawa, we were supposed to be in Ottawa for good. And this was after our fifth move and fast forward a few years, there was some issues within my parents’ relationship, there was some infidelity and we up and moved from Ottawa to Edmonton as sort of a preventative measure or like, I guess sort of like an ultimatum. So that was a huge component because that was the first time that we moved somewhere and it was like, “Okay, we're buying a nice house, make good friends, we're going to be here for good.” And then to have that totally taken up from under you. Between that and then other things in childhood, it definitely created a lot of distrust within anyone who was above me. And I definitely do have sort of like a seniority complex in that sense too. There's a reason I am my own boss and have been for over a decade because I do not do well with, I guess, authoritative or authoritative measures. When people try to tell me what to do and how to do it. It's probably something that could be addressed on my end to some degree, but that definitely played a huge role in it. And then in terms of the trust side of things. So this is kind of a fucked up situation where my parents don't actually know that my dad had affairs. This is, like, 20 years ago. And so just in terms of my actual my own relationships, friendships, business relationships, partnerships, things like that, I've just always struggled with trust because of the fact that I've seen what it does to families, what it does to me, what it did to me, I should say, as a whole. And growing up in an environment that doesn't necessarily know how to communicate or express the quote-unquote negative emotions or the big emotions we can call them, and then also creating and setting boundaries. I was never actually modeled how to do any of that, so just a lot of things that happened over time and then didn't really know how to process any of that. And then that's where I just kind of leaned into addiction as I got older, because it was much easier to just numb out the world than it was to actually deal with learning how to sit with my negative and or big emotions. I don't really like to call them negative. It's just more or less that was what I was taught, was that they were negative, right? They were bad emotions. They're big emotions.  Dawn TaylorOkay, let's pause on that for a second. Sorry for interrupting. How true is that, though? That we've been taught that all, and it's not positive or negative, good or bad, right? But it's like, all of your negative, big emotions, that's bad. Right? Like, we've been so taught that with part of that, though, even in your childhood and how you were raised and all that, the fact that everything was very black and white.  Max LarocqueYeah. Right or wrong, very almost kind of military-esque, like, this is how you do it.  Dawn TaylorYeah.  Max LarocqueNo other way around it. This is black or white, and life just simply is not black or white. Dawn TaylorNever. Max LarocqueIn any way, shape or form. Dawn TaylorNo, never has been. Max LarocqueEspecially nowadays. I think it's becoming more popularized. But just the discussion about people pleasing and how, again, as long as everyone around me is happy, then that's all that matters. And I was listening to one of your podcasts, and you guys were talking about “The Body Keeps the Score”. That was a really eye-opening book for me to read, too. My mom actually has crohn's, and being able to piece together some things from a timeline standpoint, it kind of scared me to the point where I was like, “Okay, there's some things that need to be addressed here that have clearly been underlying the service for a long period of time.” So, yeah, that was a pretty eye-opening book, to be honest. I think everyone should read that book at some point in their life. Dawn TaylorIt is. And we will put the link in the show notes for sure. So what age did the pot you start? Max LarocqueSo not until I was 18, so actually it was after I graduated.  Dawn TaylorOh, wow.  Max LarocqueYeah, I had tried a few times when I was younger. I didn't really get stones, so to be honest, I thought it was like, I think I was doing it wrong. I probably wasn't inhaling it, whatever it was, but I was just like, “Well, this is stupid. I don't even see why people would do this.” And then, fast forward, I ended up having an injury with my hand and one of my friends had bought a bong. So, for anyone who has smoked cannabis before, if you've ever smoked a bong, it's a pretty intense way of doing it. And if you smoke a bong, you're probably going to get pretty high. So I did, and that was kind of the first time I was like, “Oh, wow, this is nice.” I can just totally numb out pretty much everything on command. It was less detrimental than drinking at that period of time, too, because of the fact that I could easily be a functioning stoner. I could smoke all evening long, go to work the next day, really had no issues. It wasn't the same as being hungover and things like that. And then down the road, that led into the combination of the two to be a functioning alcoholic at that point. So I could drink less, smoke more, and then still be able to function the next day.  Dawn TaylorSo how long did that go on for before you realized it was a problem? Max LarocqueAbout a decade, basically from 18 to 28.  Dawn TaylorWow.  Max LarcoqueYeah. And it got progressively worse. There was periods of time, three to six month windows where it wasn't as excessive. Predominantly in the drinking, I smoked pretty much, I bet you, over a ten year span, I probably didn't smoke for 50 to 60 days of that entire ten years.  Dawn TaylorWow. Max LarocqueYeah. And the only reason why was basically I was on vacation and couldn't find it.  Dawn TaylorYeah. Which is crazy. So were the people around you knowing there was a problem, orwas there just an avoidance of “Well, okay.” So, multiple parts of this right? It’s an avoidance because they don't want to deal with it, but also because there's such a socially acceptable level of being stoned and drinking these days that were they even realizing it was such an issue?  Max LarocqueYeah. I mean, that definitely fed into it. I would say very much so to who you surround yourself with going to end up really dictating how you actually, what the choices that you do and don't make on a regular basis. So if everyone around you is smoking, you don't want to be the odd one out. Because that is one thing, is when you do cut alcohol out at the age of 28 or 30, whatever age you decide to do that at, you do become ostracized in our society. Unfortunately. It is slowly beginning to change, but that was definitely a huge component of it, and especially from the ages of 18 to 28, you're almost a weirdo if you don't drink and smoke. Right? It's almost more of the question of, like, Why don't you drink? That's weird. Right. I still get that today. At the age of 33, after two and a half years of not drinking, you still get people like, “Why don't you drink?” Dawn TaylorI get it all the time. Personally, I did not ever smoke or drink, but that was due to control issues. Right. Where you wanted to take control, so you did that. I was the polar opposite, where, having dealt with sexual abuse and all kinds of trauma in my own childhood, I was like, “Nobody will ever take control over me. And that's even a substance.” So even to this day, it's hilarious. I have like my one cup of coffee in the morning and I will all of a sudden randomly decide I'm not having coffee for a week just to prove that I'm not addicted to it. Do you know what I mean? There's still that “Nothing will control me in that way.” It's quite funny to me. So I never did all through high school and I 100% struggled with friends partially for that reason, and didn't get invited to things and didn't get taken out to things. As an adult. I'm talking like in my thirties and forties, I have been bullied by relatives for not drinking at events. Max LarocqueYeah, it's crazy.  Dawn TaylorI'm personally bullied and I'm just like, what?  Max LarocqueI'm personally not a huge fan of Christmas and or big holidays like that because essentially it's just a big drunk fest. And again, being the odd one out of the family that doesn't drink, it's not the most enjoyable time, to be  Dawn TaylorTotally. No, not at all. And so yeah, I know that feeling. A drink once in a while when people are like and then they almost make fun of me because I'm having a drink and I'm just like, “Oh my word, you guys.” Max LarocqueWell, see, and a big part for me too, and I've said this on other podcasts, I was kind of like a chameleon. And going back to the sort of the instability of moving all the time was that I got really good at making friends, but it was mainly around the fact that I was just a people pleaser and I put everyone else ahead of me and whatever I felt because I could fit in with any crowd. It just so happened that as I got older, I happened to fall into the crowd that was excessively drinking, excessively smoking, and because I didn't want to be ostracized and I didn't want to be that odd one out, it's like, well, I'm just going to keep on doing it and then next thing you know, they don't know what you're doing behind closed doors, right? So, if they're only smoking in a social situation, it seems normal. Well, if you don't know that when you guys leave, I'm going to continue to drink and smoke, that's more of a problem than they actually perceive or they actually see. So that was a big part of it. I would say the worst age of my drinking was 25 and that was because I had just moved out from a friend's house. So that was the first time living by myself. Like totally, totally by myself. So there was no, I guess, extra eyes on me even just from whether they would say anything or not. Nobody was acting. It was just the fact that I was behind closed doors and I had full choice and full autonomy to do whatever it was I wanted to do behind closed doors.  Dawn TaylorSo, on the outside looking in, what would I have seen had I met you? So you've been two and a half years sober. Had I met you, say, five years ago, what would I have seen? Max LarocqueAbsolutely no difference. From the outside looking in. To be honest, when I came out publicly, everyone was shocked. My parents were shocked when I came out. Everyone was shocked because I was so good at putting on the front. And my biggest thing was, especially being in the fitness industry, was I commonly felt like I was kind of on a pedestal, and as long as I looked a certain way, then no one would ever see anything was wrong. Right? I drove the BMW, I had a nice haircut. I've been in the gym since I was 14 years old. So, if someone looks that way and they have their Starbucks in hand each day, and they have their BMW and they had their stupid, expensive haircut, you wouldn't think anything was wrong. And that was my whole, I guess, objective behind that, was to make sure that no one would have ever thought twice about it.  Dawn TaylorYeah. So when did it finally come to a head? What was the moment that you were like, “I might be in trouble.” Max LarocqueSo I was 30 years old. I was actually with my ex-girlfriend, and that was predominantly what prompted even the thought of looking inward and actually considering, like, “Hey, how much do I drink on a weekly basis? How much do I smoke on a weekly basis?” So we had just gotten my now-dog Lucy together, and she was definitely pushing in the direction of wanting kids pretty quickly. We hadn't been together for that long, for the record. So, there was a lot of pressure going from a lot of different directions. And at that point in time, I was about $40,000 in debt. I hadn't told her any of this because there was so much shame around the debt that that's when I first started thinking, like, okay, like, I hadn't even said this to her verbally. This was just in my own head was that, like, okay, she wants to have a family. I'm $40,000 debt. Haven't told her about it. “There is zero fucking chance in hell that I am bringing a kid into this world where I'm already swimming in debt.” I can't smoke, eat, socialize, or do just about anything unless I drink or smoke. Like, thankfully, I had some sort of subconscious awareness of no, fucking pump the brakes. You do not need to bring a kid in this world because this will just exacerbate all of the issues that you're currently dealing with. The issues that you're avoiding right now, they're going to blow the fuck up if you bring a kid.  Dawn TaylorOh, Max, come on. Yeah, that would have been the best thing for you to do, insert sarcasm here.  Max LarocqueYeah. So, thankfully, whatever. I don't know. Again, subconscious part of me that just had the awareness to know because, I mean, a lot of people get themselves in these situations that, “Let's just have a kid and it'll get better.” No, it fucking won't. “Let's just get married and it'll get better.” No, it fucking won't. Whatever issues that you're avoiding right now are not just going to dissipate and go away. They're going to, by adding more problems, get worse and worse and worse and worse. And then if you do have children, you're not going to have the energy and or capacity to actually deal with your own shit, I think is a very commonly overlooked thing before having children, in my personal opinion, which will probably piss some people off, but that's okay. Dawn TaylorThis is the words I use, “In my humble yet correct opinion.” Feel free to use that. Max LarocqueYeah, exactly. My opinion is my opinion. You're going to hate me. I've pissed off more than enough people in the last two and a half years. It's okay.  Dawn TaylorNo, I don't think much different on that. And I get in trouble with that, too. Yeah. Fix your shit before you pass it on to everyone else in your world.  Max LarocqueI know there can't be an actual test for it, but there should be one. Dawn TaylorOkay. You and my husband should talk about that. Quick side note, his line is always that everyone should be fixed upon birth and you should have to actually just go to a doctor's office to sign a piece of paper saying you're ready to have a kid. Even if there's no test, even if there's no one's going to stop you, you actually have to book an appointment and go. So it just pauses you in the moment to be like, “Is this actually what we want?”  Max LarocqueYeah. Dawn TaylorThat's always been his thing. And everyone gets mad at him for it. He's standing by it. Max LarocqueI'd have to say, I agree with your husband.  Dawn TaylorYeah. You just reminded me of him. That's awesome. So you realize that this is a no go. So what shifted there? Because you are not, I'm guessing, currently with that girlfriend and you don't have kids, or else you just haven't told me.  Max LarocqueNo. And also, I do have ADHD, so if I ever go on a tangent and then forget to come back, bring me back in and I'll be the same.  Dawn TaylorIt's okay.  Max LarcoqueYeah. So that's what prompted that. And so this was April of 2020. So we had just basically gone into lockdown. Oh, gosh, five and a half weeks prior kind of thing. So we had just shut down our previous location for the first time, the first lockdown. And this was like in that first six weeks of COVID where no one had a fucking clue what was going on. Dawn TaylorNobody did.  Max LarocqueEverything was changing. So, like, I still remember when the NBA, the NHL, everything like that closed down, where it was like, oh, shit, this is serious. This is a pretty big thing. And then again, fast forward, and it just was COVID. But at the time, I've been wanting to transition my business to somewhat online at that point in time. And when COVID hit, it was actually a really good time to do so because it was like, well, I'm making my $2,000 a month here on CERB, which has not really taken me too far here, especially when I'm $40,000 secretly in debt. So, now is the time. So, I actually hired a coach at that point in time for business coaching because I just had zero idea how to actually get myself online from a position of business. I already had an Instagram following and things like that. So, I hired a coach. And the first 60 days of that program was predominantly life coaching and sort of like looking at yourself first, because if you're going to put yourself online, one, it's quite exhausting. B, if you put out a fake persona of yourself online, it is inevitable that you will burn out in a very short period of time,  Dawn TaylorNot gonna work.  Max LarocqueBecause there's no way you can have this persona of who you are and then actually be yourself. So that was when I really started looking at how much am I drinking on a week to week basis. And this is where it's tough too, because with cannabis addiction, it gets very much downplayed. It's like, “Oh, it's just weed. You can't be addicted to weed.” Like, shut the fuck up. You can be addicted to just about anything, whether it be substance and or non substance addiction. Second of all, with alcohol, again, especially within that age demographic, it's like, “No, man, you're fine. You just like to drink, okay?” And people would downplay it over and over and over again. And it wasn't until I actually sat with it and it's like, okay, I'm breaking this down. So I'm drinking anywhere between, like, six and eight ounces of scotch a night, drinking between or smoking between one and two joints a night. So if I add this up, that's like over a 40 ounce of scotch a week. And that's just me. That's not including, like, if I went to my ex-girlfriend's parents for dinner and had some wine, if I went to my parents house, had some wine or some beers, that was just me. And then actually putting this on paper and seeing the numerical value attached to that, where I was like, “Holy fuck, I'm drinking a 40 plus a week and smoking about a quarter ounce of weed a week.” Yeah, okay. Of course there's people out there that have it worse, but it's not a competition of who has it, who doesn't have it worse. And I had that kind of fixated in my head that I would downplay the own severity of my own problem because it was like, “Oh, well, so and so does this, and so and so does. At least I'm not doing cocaine all the time. That was how I would try to kind of justify it in my head.”  Dawn TaylorYeah.  Max LarcoqueAnd so for me, when I wrote I actually wrote a post about it one day, and it was just the first time that I had actually acknowledged that I had a problem with it, and I hadn't posted it publicly again. I was still with my ex at the time, and quick story on that was that I wrote this post when she was at work, and she got home that day and I showed it to her. And that was the first time that I actually sat with the fact that I classified myself as an alcoholic and then we won't go too far in details of that because it's just a long blown-up story, but basically, her grandfather had pretty much killed himself with alcohol and so when I brought this to light with my own issues with drinking, it was like, “well, you're not an alcohol-alcoholic because you don't drink to the point where you're pissing your pants every night.” So that really fucked with my head, because I just wrote this piece. Yeah, I just wrote out this story, essentially, of my life and what I was actually dealing with. To then have the person next to me basically invalidate that completely and say that I'm being dramatic. This isn't as bad as I'm making it seem because of XYZ, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. So, that really fucked with my head. And then again, long story short, I ended up posting it publicly because I got her, I guess, permission, you can say.  Dawn TaylorYeah. Max Larocque But then that caused a whole fucking shit show of issues within our relationship. Her family tried to get involved and tried to say also that I didn't have problems, and yada, yada, yada. So, yeah, that blew up, and then we split in November of 2020. I took Lucy full-time, and that was the main reason why I got sober, was Lucy. So, she was the reason that I got sober and stayed. Again, not sober, but alcohol-free for the duration that it has been. So, yeah, Lucy was kind of the main driver because we had got her in August of 2020. And then that's when those thoughts started to come out more frequently and then once we split, that was when the responsibility was fully on me to take care of her and anything that happened to her or anything that happened to me was my responsibility, and I had to take control of that. Dawn TaylorOkay, I have so many thoughts on this. Number one is people, stop gaslighting people when they say what they're feeling and what they're going through.  Max LarocqueYeah. Dawn TaylorI had this conversation this morning with someone talking about trauma and how one person's trauma will resonate in their body and sit within the same as somebody else's that would be nothing. Right? Where you can look from the outside and be like, “Oh, no, that's on a scale, and this one's way worse than that one.” But your perspective is your truth is your reality, right? It's yours. And that is how you feel if someone says to you, like, “Hey, I'm struggling with this.” or “I think that I might be an alcoholic.” or, “Hey, I think I might be an addict.” or, “Hey, I think I need support in this.” Can we actually start stepping up as humanity and as society and be like, “Okay, if this is a problem, maybe I don't deem it a problem, but you do, so that means it's important.” Max LarocqueExactly. And from a severity standpoint, is everyone has a different tolerance to everything, right? In terms of how you tolerate stress, how you tolerate your alcohol, your drugs, your whatever avoidance techniques you're using, we all have different tolerances for it.  Dawn TaylorAll of us. All of us. Max LarocqueWe all tolerate trauma differently too. So depending on our upbringing 100%, the age that it happened, the communication we had with our parents and our caregivers, were we able to actually decompress some of that trauma and process some of that trauma at a young age? Or was it something that just sat there and then festered over time, then became a severe addiction, whatever it may be? So, everyone's different. Gabor Mate uses the big T, little T analogy, but it's like, again, trauma is your trauma. No one needs to understand it and no one needs to feel it the way you do. If you believe what it is, then it is.  Dawn TaylorWell. And I've had people in the past say, like, “I feel almost guilty for doing this work, I feel guilty for spending this money, I feel guilty for taking this resource from somebody else who needs it more.” And it's like, “Whoa, no.” Max LarocqueAnd it's interesting. Dawn TaylorWorse or better or easier or harder? Like, no. Max LarocqueI always mixed up guilty and shame, too, and I'm sure you are very well versed in this, where it's like they feel guilty. Is it they feel guilty or is it like they feel shame around it. And is it like the shame that's actually preventing them from wanting to work through it and work on it and talk about it and actually bring it to light?  Dawn TaylorWell. And even the definition right, where it's like, guilty is like, I did something bad. Shame. Shame is like, I am bad. Like, me as the person I am bad. Right? And so really breaking that down. So then you get a dog, or you have your dog, and now this is what helps you get sober. But was this just part of getting sober? Or was it actually like, no, now you have to do some recovery work on what got you there in the first place.    Max LarocqueSo fast forward two and a half years to today, tthat's where I am now. So I actually recorded a podcast episode about this a couple of months ago, and it was me coming to terms with the fact that I had just transferred addictions to work. So, I had transferred all of my addictive tendencies to work and building my businesses. And I just used that as an avoidance tactic to actually sitting with those big emotions that we talked about. And this is one that is also super-layered because of the fact that we live in a society that actually promotes workaholism and celebrates workaholism. Even though it's taking away from your family, it's taking away from your physical health, it's taking away from your mental health, it's taking away from the relationship you could be building with your children, it's taking away from a lot of things. But because we live in a society that says, oh, my God, you make 200,000 a year, like, you are so successful. Well, define successful. If I make $200,000 a year but my wife hates me, my kids think I'm a shitty dad, and my physical health is declining rapidly, am I successful?  Dawn TaylorOkay, let's just talk about that for a sec. Because this is a thing, so I've often talked about it, and I've. like. working with clients that have been in recovery, is when they talk about the fact that you do need to go home and not be with the same people, right? So that you're surrounded by it. So that you're surrounded, not surrounded by the drugs, you're not surrounded by the alcohol, and you have a new life to look forward to, right. But you have to find new people. I've often thought I can't imagine being the person coming out of rehab and pretty much being told, I have to go home and live a completely different life while still struggling with the fact that I'm trying to stay off of drugs and alcohol and all of these things, right. But, anytime I've worked with somebody who's addicted to food, addicted to work, addicted to shopping, addicted to these things, it is so hard because these are things that are required of us on a daily basis, right? You can't actually get through life without eating. You can't totally get through life without ever having a job and working, right? So then we transfer addictions to something that is actually just socially

Content Warning: suicideIn this episode, we discuss some topics that listeners may find difficult such as suicide and loss. Why you would want to listen to this episode…Kyle Dube knows a lot about young people from his experience as a father and a man dedicated to helping youths. Unfortunately, his world changed when he lost his youngest son. Today, he opens up about his struggles with handling loss and grief and his passion in urging people, both young and old, to be relentless in their purpose and in being there for the people they love the most. Who this for...Suicide has many societal stigmas and today’s episode goes above and beyond in not only discussing these stigmas but also tearing them down. For those who would like to know more about what to say or do in the face of tragic events, or for those who wish to understand the unique point of view of a grieving person who’s chosen to be as strong as ever before, this episode is for you.  About Dawn TaylorDawn Taylor is the professional ass-kicker, hope giver, life strategist, trauma specialist, and all-around badass. Dawn's journey into helping others heal began when she took her personal recovery from the trauma she experienced in her life into her own hands. While at times unconventional, Dawn’s strategic methods have helped hundreds heal from traumas such as issues related to infidelity,  overcoming addiction,  working through PTSD from sexual, emotional, and physical abuse, as well as helping cult survivors thrive. Dawn’s work has empowered entrepreneurs, stay-at-home moms, and CEOs alike to be superheroes in their own lives. Having completed thousands of hours of training from many professional programs, including the Robbins Madanes Training Institute, Dawn’s blunt honesty will challenge your thinking, broaden your awareness, and help you achieve the outstanding results you are worthy of.Connect with Dawn here at The Taylor Way: Consultation Call | Website | Facebook | Instagram | LinkedInGet to know Dawn on a deeper level through her book! Order HereP.S. I Made It, is a powerful story that grabs you through its lack of pretension and honesty. Every page reveals another layer of curious wonder at both Dawn’s life and the power of hope that moves within each of us. Dawn’s hope is that you use this book as a resource to deal with your struggles. Share it with someone who needs it. We all want to feel like someone understands what it’s like to suffer through something and – come out the other side. She describes her life as “horrifically beautiful and beautifully horrific.  Guest BioKyle has lived in the Edmonton area his entire life and has been dedicated to working with youth for over 30 years. Kyle has been with YOUCAN Youth Services since 2002. In that time, YOUCAN Youth Services has grown from a one-person office to being a leading organization in youth work and transitional youth employment programming. Kyle is learning to understand grief as he, unfortunately, lost his youngest son to suicide in April of 2021. It is a profoundly devastating journey that he is on, as he learns to navigate life without his son Luke.  Guest Social LinksYouCan Services - www.youcan.caTwitter - @kyledube  Relentless Podcast episode with Dawn Taylor - https://www.youcan.ca/relentless-series/dawn-taylor-from-damaged-teen-to-confident-ass-kicker/ Thanks for listening!Thanks so much for listening to our podcast! If you enjoyed this episode and think that others could benefit from listening, please share it using the social media buttons on this page. Do you have some feedback or questions about this episode? Leave a comment in the section below! Follow the podcastIf you want to receive new podcast episodes automatically, you can follow us on Apple Podcasts or in your favourite podcast app. Please leave us an Apple Podcasts review!Ratings and reviews from our listeners are extremely valuable to us and greatly appreciated. They help our podcast rank higher on Apple Podcasts, which exposes our show to more awesome listeners like you. If you have a minute, please leave an honest review. Views Expressed, Legal and Medical DisclaimerThis podcast (including any/all site pages, blog posts, blog comments, forums, videos, audio recordings, etc.) is not intended to replace the services of a physician, nor does it constitute a doctor-patient relationship. Information is provided for informational purposes only and is not a substitute for professional medical advice. You should not use the information on this podcast for diagnosing or treating a medical or health condition. If you have or suspect you have an urgent medical problem, promptly contact your professional healthcare provider. Any application of the recommendations in this podcast/website is at the listener/reader's discretion. The views and opinions expressed are those of guests and do not necessarily reflect the opinion or policy of Dawn Taylor, The Taylor Way and or its Associates. The before mentioned are not liable for any direct or indirect claim or loss.  Transcript Dawn TaylorHey, hey, hey, guys. Welcome to the Taylor Way. Wait. It is me, your host, Dawn Taylor. And we're going to just give you a heads up today on this episode. As you know, if you've listened to my podcast before, you know that we're talking about the things no one talks about. We're diving deep into topics and some are light, some are heavy, some are a little bit in between. But a warning on today's is we are going to be talking about suicide. We are going to be talking about grief and loss and all of those things. And if I get emotional, bear with me. If my guest gets emotional, bear with him. Um, but this is a very important conversation that needs to happen. It's an incredibly important conversation that needs to happen. And so today we are going to have it. So before we dive in, I want to tell you a little bit about our guest. Kyle is an incredible man who has lived in Edmonton his entire life. And he is, he's dedicated to working with youth and he has been for over 30 years. Like, that's insane. He has been with You Can Youth Services since 2002, and in that time it's grown from a one-person office to being a leading organization in youth work and transitional youth employment programming. He is slowly learning to understand grief as he unfortunately lost his youngest son to suicide in April of 2021. And it is a profoundly devastating journey that he has been on and as he learns to navigate life without Luke. So we are here today to talk about this, to dive into the stigma around it, the grief around it, and the fact that love is really fucking hard sometimes. So, let's welcome Kyle to the show. Hi, Kyle.  Kyle DubeHey, Dawn. Thanks for having me. It's good to be here. Dawn TaylorIt is so good to have you here. It's these topics, right? It's topics that we wish people talked about. So, right off the bat. We're going to just dive right into this. I'm going to tell you guys right now, if you're listening to the show to hear what happened, how it happened, all of that stuff, shut it off and walk away because you're not going to hear. I've said from day one, this show would never be about a sensationalism thing. But let's start with when this happened and what it was like to go through it and how you heard.  Kyle DubeYeah. So, um, I've been on a, you know, I've been on a couple of podcasts before and done a couple conversations about this. As you know, Dawn, and the way that I kind of started is, um, April 4th, 2021. Um, it was Easter Sunday and it was a very normal day in our home. Um, it was during the midst of COVID and, and we probably shouldn't have had my in-laws over because of all the restrictions, but we did.  Dawn TaylorA little rule breaker. Kyle DubeYeah. And it was just a normal day in many aspects. And my, my wife and I, uh, we're here. I have three sons, um, Liam, Jax and Luke. Liam, my oldest was home. Jax, and my middle was playing in the WHL at the time, so he was actually out of town. And Luke, my youngest, was home and we just spent the day visiting and then just doing our normal things and went to bed. Um, so I always start that way just to say it was just normal. Everything. Everything was just so exactly what we were so used to. And, um. Easter Monday. I woke up. Um, we're prepping because my middle boy had a game that night. Uh, so we were going to all watch it together and that some time when we all went to bed, my youngest son, Luke, who was 16.5 years old at the time, uh, took his own life. Um, and it was the day that, of course, changed our lives forever. It changed the lives of many forever. And it was the absolute worst day imaginable. And that's when, um, what I'll call my grief walk began. And, and it was. It was just the absolute worst.  Dawn TaylorYeah. So you get hit with the worst news of your entire life. The thing that no parents ever thought that they would have to deal with. Kyle DubeYeah.  Dawn TaylorOne of the things that we had talked about in advance and discussing this is the stigma that's out there on death by suicide. Right? And the fact that it's there's shame attached to it and guilt attached to it. And people have this idea that “Oh, well, they must have been on drugs or they must have been drunk or they must have been dealing with something horrible or there was some insane trauma or whatever else.” And you guys were just like this normal, happy, loving family. I mean, you do youth work like you, like you would have seen the red flags kind of idea, right? And you had no idea.  Kyle DubeYeah, so, I like to think we were, you know, and don't like to think. I know we're a really good family. Yeah. My wife and I. And you're going to hear the word relentless a lot as we talk, because, as you know, I use that word a lot at my work. I use that word a lot in my life. And we were relentless parents, um, very involved in all three boys’ lives from their schooling activities to their education, to their social lives. We have a great village, you know, great grandparents, aunts and uncles, cousins, friends, incredibly involved in a lot of different things in our community. And. Luke, oh, truthfully, none of my boys have dealt with addictions. They haven't dealt with what I would consider to be heavy mental illness like health issues. Mental illness issues. And Luke, from everything, I mean, you know, for our 16.5 years with Luke was, was a pretty normal dude. Very, very athletic, you know, did well in school, had a great group of friends. Um, and truthfully though, could be up and down. But I would suggest that that's like every 16.5 year old, you know. And you're right, I've taken suicide intervention training three or 4 or 5 times in my career, you know, I've dealt with this type of stuff in my career. And although Luke had been down for a couple few weeks prior to him taking his life, there were no massive red flags. There was nothing that made me stop in my tracks and be like, “Oh my goodness.” And we were doing all the normal things that we would do for all three of our boys if they were going through a bit of a down spiral time where, you know, given a little more attention, a little more love, more talking, all that tech stuff. And there was a darkness within Luke that we obviously did not understand. We didn't fully see it, and he obviously couldn't fully express it because he was talking to us. Um, but he couldn't fully express the depth of what that was and what that looked like for him and you know, well, I say that this was a shock of a lifetime. That's the understatement of my life. And I would suggest that that would be the same for pretty much everyone that knows us. You know, there are certain situations that you know of. I'm sure that that I know of where, you know, if somebody were to die by suicide, you never want to say, “Oh, that's not surprising.”  Dawn TayloeBut, let's be honest, it's that feeling of like, “Oh, it's not a shock.” It's not a jarring shock often. Kyle DubeYeah, I think that's a good way to put it. A jarring shock. I think it's always shocking. But I think that the jarring shock for probably a small amount of people, though, is, you know, it's but that again, we didn't see any of that. And so there is, um, there is shame associated with suicide, right? Because, listen, there's so much guilt that we go through, Dawn, that it's incredible. And that's going to be with us forever. I have a thousand questions and they'll never be answered. They'll never be answered. And that's a very, very difficult way to live life. But, where my heart breaks is, obviously for us. My wife, my other two sons, all our village. But my heart breaks mostly for Luke. Obviously it would because he was in so much turmoil and pain internally that he ended his life and it's a pain that's indescribable. I literally cannot describe the pain that we go through every day from April 5th, 2021.  Dawn TaylorSo, for anyone listening to this who is considering taking your life, who knows someone who is. Please, please, please, please, please share this with them. And I want you to hear these words. So, right before we started this conversation, now I'm going to get emotional. I was telling Kyle that I have been there and I remember laying in a hospital bed when they found me and they saved me, and I lived in, every part of me believed that I had failed. And I was so angry. And if you've read my book, you know that I talk about this in there and hearing Kyle's words, even for me, feel like hearing a father's words to a child, of what they went through and what that looks like. And I just want to challenge anyone who's listening, like, hear that. The vulnerability of what he's even saying, right? Because it is an indescribable pain when you lose someone like that.  Kyle DubeYou know, it's the way I described the first, I'll say 2 to 4 weeks. And you may have heard me describe it this way before, Dawn. It's like when you watch a movie and it's some movie and a bomb goes off. And the people that survived that bomb there, there's a ringing and there's their ears and it's confusing and they don't really know where they are. And they're disorientated. That's kind of what it was like for the first month until that fog cleared, but I'll be honest with you, I still feel that way often. There's times where both my wife and I will say to one another, we just can't. It's almost. it's you know, we're almost two and a half years in and it's still surreal. It it it. It's still, none of it makes sense. And you really feel like we cannot believe that this is our lives right now, and grief is a very, very hard thing and grief is something that I believe I had an acquaintance. You know, grief was an acquaintance of mine prior to dying because I had lost some people in my life. And it was hard. But until you lose a child and, you know, people say, well, “You know, you can't compare.” Well, you can compare. You know, I lost my mom not even a year after Luke to cancer. She was 67. She shouldn't have died. I love my mom so much. And truthfully, I don't think I've started to process it yet because my mom, who I loved so much, is not my greatest loss. You know, Luke's death, the loss of a child. It's the unnatural order of life, right? And unfortunately, with suicide. Um, you don't have something to blame. Well, that's a lie. Some suicides, you do. You know, maybe it's addiction. Maybe there was an overdose. Maybe, whatever. Maybe it's heavy mental illness, whatever that is, but it's not. You know, a very, very good friend of mine lost his son in the Humboldt crash and he said, “Kyle, I don't know who where you put your anger.” Because for him, he you know, the way for him, it's he was putting it all at a truck driver or a trucking industry or whatever. I have a friend who lost his son to cancer. He puts all of his anger towards cancer. Um, Luke wasn't bullied. Luke wasn't sick. Luke didn't have addictions like. I don't know.  Dawn TaylorNone of the normal. Kyle DubeNo. And this is some of the stuff that you and I've talked about where I almost feel at times like a hypocrite saying be relentless with your kids because we are relentless with our kids and we were with Luke, and yet Luke still took his own life. But, I still think the strong message is you have to be relentless with your kids. You have to be. And you know what? Let's not even say your kids. Let's say anybody in your life, anybody in your life who you have that. And you know who you think might or might not be doing well. Show up. Show up, be relentless. And that as a parent, you know, let's be honest, a lot of young people, they don't want to talk to their parents. That's normal. You didn't want to. I didn't want to. But I think that we have to be annoying. We really do. Dawn TaylorOh, I like that. Yeah. Kyle DubeThey don't want. They don't want to talk to you. Oh, well, still knock on their door. Bang on their door. Go lie on their bed. Go talk to them. Even if they don't talk back, eventually it's going to sink in. And we did all that stuff. Yeah. And it's it's. Yeah. So I'm kind of rambling here, but– Dawn TaylorNo, no, it's okay. Oh, don't ever apologize. It's grief. It's words. Don't apologize for them. Break down what relentless means to you.  Kyle DubeI think there's some basic things around like, you know, just don't ever give up. You know, when you fall down, you know, you get back up. Um, show up all the time. Be there all the time. Much easier said than done. Right? It is. I think a great definition of it is, be a pain in the ass. You know, I really believe that that is being relentless. And you can take any aspect of your life and be a pain in the ass relentlessly. Um, you know, at work, you want to do better and work well, be relentless, you know, again, show up, do your best, all that type of stuff. But I really do believe it is pursuing a relationship in a healthy way. You know, and pursuing it because it matters that much. Now, that's what I believe it is. And interestingly enough, Dawn, the most relentless thing in my life is grief.  Dawn TaylorIt's not leaving you alone. Kyle DubeIt'll never leave. It will never quit. That's what being relentless is. You never quit and grief will never quit. Dawn TaylorGrief is an interesting one. It won't ever quit. But we get bigger than it.  Kyle DubeYeah. I'm not there yet. I think for me, what it is, is learning to adapt your life around it, right? It's like a chronic physical pain where you have to adapt your life around that and you just end up getting used to it, really. But that's what grief is to me is learning to adapt your life around it. Because, listen, two and a half years in, there have been some shifts. There's a lot of things that I'll say I and we can do now that we couldn't do a year ago. Yeah, there's still a lot, there's truthfully, there's some things I can't do now that I could do a year ago, which is interesting. But there's, there's different shifts, but it's because we're learning to live with it. You know, there's a song, I forget what it's called and, oh, I forgot to call. But the lyrics are essentially the only cure for the pain is the pain. And that's it. You just, it's a grind every day. I wish somebody could say, listen, on, you know, March 15th, 2029, you'll feel so good. You'll feel the way you felt that on April 4th, 2021, the day before Luke took his life. But that's not going to happen because if that were to happen, then I go, “Okay, put my head down, grind it out. Let's go.” But that's not going to happen. You know, I've read that the depth of your grief is the reflection of the depth of your love for that individual. Dawn TaylorYes, it is.  Kyle DubeAnd that makes sense to me, you know? I mean, listen, there's tragedy all over the place. There is. But if you're not connected to it or you don't have that love connection to it, it kind of doesn't affect you, right?  Dawn TaylorNot in the same way. Not even close.  Kyle DubeYeah. I mean, you just kind of. The world moves on, right? But when you're in the midst of this, your world doesn't move on. How do I move on from my sweet, beautiful, perfect Luke because he was my boy.  Dawn TaylorHe was your baby. Kyle DubeHow do you move on from that? You can't. So what we're trying to do is somehow move forward by still carrying him but it's really hard. And then there's all those things that go with it. And we can get into this if you want. All the things around the guilt. You know Dawn TaylorYou're willing to go there. Let's go there. Kyle DubeThe living constantly with the “If I would have done this, I should have done this. Maybe I could have done this.” Like all these different things. I literally think back to, okay, when he was, when he was three years old and this happened, maybe I should have reacted this way instead of that. Like you literally question every single thing you did as a parent. Everything. That's hard. Dawn TaylorHave you, so some of the stigmas, right? So many of the stigmas attached to suicide are that, right? Is that there's, you know, a judgment from the outside and I've heard this before from people where there is a death by suicide, which is really a death by mental health. That, you know, people on the outside are like, “Oh, wonder what happened in their family? Wonder what was going on with their kid? Oh, I bet you they were not good parents or whatever.” You know, like you hear those things. And I've often said that like my parents struggled with me, but my parents were phenomenal parents. They were amazing parents. They were amazing grandparents, amazing friends and family. Maybe not to me, but everyone else, right? And it wasn't that, like, I actually truly to the core of my being believed that I was doing them a favor. Like it was an act of love from me, right? Which is what's so wild. Right. And so when I heard that before, you know, or even like when a celebrity dies in that way, you know, all of the judgments and the stuff that's attached to it. And I'm like, “No.” Kyle DubeIt's interesting because, you know, you and I have talked about this a little bit where I don't know if we've been judged. You know, I'm assuming I've been because I'm assuming, um, listen, we've all been there. We've all heard of somebody dying by suicide. And right away you kind of go into this, “Oh, like, why? How?” Like you start asking all the questions, too, and then you really start analyzing, like, you know, where they come from, what happened in their lives, all that type of stuff. And so I'm assuming maybe that happened to us. But honestly, if it has, I haven't experienced it. And I don't know if that's because. I refuse to be judged. You know, And I'm not trying to be all like, “Oh, I'm so strong, I won't be judged.” But I just. I just look at it and I and truthfully, part of my attitude is and I know we can swear on here, part of my attitude is if you want to judge me like, “Fuck you, like, go ahead.” You know what I mean? Yeah.  I know even though we all blame ourselves. And even though I blame myself and a lot of people go, “Well, you can't blame yourself.”  Dawn TaylorIt's easier said than done, right. Kyle DubeLike, rationally. I know it's not my fault. I know it's not anybody's fault. Yeah, but emotionally, that's almost impossible to for me anyways to separate the two. But I know that when Luke, of course we had, you know, people were being notified the school Luke was in grade 11 and they reached out to us and said, “How do you want it?” Because I don't know. I didn't know any of this. Um, or maybe I did, but I was in such a fog that they would put out, like, a notice, right? Like school, division wide. If a child dies, they do that. And they asked us that. They asked us the language. Like if we were okay. If they put the words like how he died, the word suicide. And we huddled up and within like a minute we're like, well, yes, like, my question was more like, “Well, why wouldn't she?” And maybe that's just the way we are. Like, we wouldn't like to think we wouldn't judge others for it, but our initial thought was “No. Like, we're not ashamed of Luke.” I'm so proud of my son. I'm not ashamed of him. And I'm not ashamed of what he did, and our next thought was maybe this will get people talking. You know, maybe this will actually have parents, you know, you've seen it many times. I've done it and said it whenever young people have died or I'm like, “Well, I'm going to hug my kids a little tighter tonight.” I think that's great. That's good. But you got to do more than that. Suicide is not an easy thing to talk about it, like who wants to talk about suicide, right? I think it's so important for families to discuss it. Not every day. Not like, you know, hey, every day at supper. Let's talk about it. But I think it's good to be checking in with your kids and with people in general. I really do believe that. And so that's another reason why we said no. You let people know that Luke died by suicide and then we kind of went a little bit public with it. On social media and stuff like that, and it honestly wasn't a garner attention to us or garner attention to, you know, it was more garner attention around please go talk, go If you are suicidal, go talk to somebody or if you know somebody that you think might be go talk to them. And yeah, but there is that stigma and that shame, right? There's all that person screwed up. And I agree with what you say. Suicide is death by mental illness. And obviously Luke had mental health issues that we did not recognize.  Dawn TaylorCan I say, not even that you didn't recognize, but that he did really well?  Kyle DubeYeah, I think he did. I think he did.  I've met other people who have been in your situation, Dawn, who, um, who attempted and it would be a similar story. I thought I was just going to rid the world of something bad. You know, like, I thought this would be better for everybody else and if that isn't mental? Dawn TaylorOh, it's mental illness. It's 100% it's mental illness. But I also think that we are, some people just internalize and some of us do just keep secrets. I remember when my book came out and talking to a few people, one of my family members was like, either I was the worst -  It was my brother. He's like, “Either I was the worst brother or you were the world's greatest secret keeper. Which was it?” Kyle DubeRight.  Dawn TaylorAnd I said, honestly, probably a bit of both. But I'm an incredible keeper. Secret keeper. Kyle DubeYeah, it's an interesting way to look at it because, um, Luke was a pretty quiet guy, you know? I mean, Luke was hilarious around here. Like, you know, Luke would talk and talk and talk and talk it with his buddies. He would talk, but for the Luke, Luke was, as he went into his teenagers anyways, he just became more introverted. But not abnormally. Oh, and I mean, my oldest boy is quite introverted, yet he's one of the funniest people I've ever met in my life. Dawn TaylorOh, that's introverts. We're hilarious. You just got to get us comfortable. Kyle DubeThat's so interesting that you would say us introverts, because people, in my opinion, don't know who's an introvert and who isn't an introvert because I would not look at you as an introvert. Right? So, you know, but I would say you could look at Luke as, as he was an introvert, but that, that's a strength. You know, I also used to have. And I really did have the attitude that, well, suicide was weak and selfish.  Dawn TaylorThere's a stigma around it. Kyle DubeHuge stigma. Dawn TaylorHuge, massive stigma around it. KyleAnd I guess it took my son, taking his own life, too. Luke was not weak. Luke is one of the strongest, most bullheaded people I've ever met in my life.  Dawn TaylorYou really mean he was your son? Kyle DubeHe was my son. Luke was so relentless. If Luke wanted to do something, he was relentless. He was strong. And you know what? Was Luke selfish? Yeah, because every 16 year old is selfish. But if Luke would see, if Luke would see the carnage and the aftermath of what has happened here? Luke would have never done that. He just because Luke wasn't selfish. So again, I look at it, it was described to me this way, and I like the analogy of it was, it's a brain attack. You know, it's, it's like a heart attack or, you know, his brain failed him. His brain failed him and he couldn't not see past that moment.  Dawn TaylorYou know, can we just pause there for a second? Because I think more people need to hear that is even when it comes to mental health, when it comes to any of this. He had a brain attack. Right? Like, his brain failed him. And if you're lucky enough that in your depression or in your dark place or in your trauma or in your, whatever that you do, reach out to someone and you do find someone that can work with you and you do. You do find that glimmer of hope that allows you to fight for yourself. You're actually lucky.  Like, you're dreamily lucky. Because a lot of people don't believe they're worth fighting for. A lot of people have had that ingrained in them. A lot of people have been gaslit to believe that we're actually okay when we're not, to believe that we're not broken when we feel broken. You know, I think that more people need to look at it as a brain break, right? It's like a heart attack, but in your head. Kyle DubeRight, and also looked at it where like, you know, I'll use me as an example. I'm not the healthiest guy. I smoke. I'm, you know, got some extra pounds. I could lose some, you know, some would say I'm a heart attack waiting to happen. Well, if you think about it that way and then you just think about mental illness. Well, Luke knew that he wasn't doing well. And then like a heart attack. You don't know when it's coming? No. And I actually, talking to a couple other people that I know that have gone through this, it just happened. It was just, you know, they obviously planned it out and this and that, but it was like. There was no for them. There was no turning back. And that, to me, is a brain attack. Yeah, it really is. The brain failed them and believe that that happens to many people. We take their lives, you know, that are not strung out on drugs or completely hammered or, you know, that's what I believe, and it's brutal. It's brutal. Dawn TaylorSo how has it shifted? Your relationship with your other boys. How has it shifted your relationships with people closest to you? When this deep, crazy love has hurt you so hard.  Kyle DubeHow?  Dawn TaylorYeah, I think there's been over these last two and a half years for you. Kule DubeYeah, I think there's a few things to unpack there, I think, with, with my other boys. Um, and, you know, I'll never tell my wife's story or my other boys story because–  Dawn TaylorAbsolutely not. Kyle DubeBecause I can’t understand what they're going through. Right? Like our relationships were, were very different with Luke because, you know, father to son, mother to son, brother. But as far as the other boys go, I mean, we are hypersensitive now. Oh, what's happening in their lives and. And that that's hard. Like, it can at times almost be I don't want to say debilitating, but it does turn into a thing where, you know, it's just a constant worry. Because, again, like, this wasn't supposed to happen to Luke. And so it and that's a tough way to live, and I actually feel bad for the boys sometimes because think it's probably a tough way for them to live knowing that mom and dad are literally, you know, mean they're 20 and almost 22 now and, you know, there's times where you feel like there are three and five years old because you just want to. You want to be at every single moment of their lives to make sure that they're okay. And so that's tough. Um, you know, I check in a lot with those boys and they're very gracious with me because I'm sure they just want to say, “Shut up, dad, Like, get lost.” But they're very gracious. Um. It's just very hard for them. It's very hard to watch what they've gone through. You know, they were 17, almost 18, and you know, 18, almost 19 when this happened. And their lives are changed forever. You know, my boys were very close. I mean, we had we had all three of them in three years and nine days, you know, And now, you know, they're brothers. They did brother things, They fought, they did all that stuff. But. But but they were very, very close. And just, yeah, but as far as others go, I mean, I don't know. Like it's interesting. I have to step back often, Dawn, because I have to step back and go, “Okay, Kyle, that is relevant to that person's life.” Like, that is the worst thing that's happening in that person's life. This is the way I'll explain it. I would say that my empathy levels, uh, have increased profoundly for other people. And yet they've decreased. Not profoundly, but they've decreased some as well. And the reason I say that is because I see I see a lot of people just differently, people that are going through different things. But, one of my best friends, his mom, has Alzheimer's and like, full blown Alzheimer's. Like, it's just so sad. And I see him differently and and and probably even more so I see his dad differently because they're grieving the loss of this amazing woman who's still alive. Dawn TaylorOh, it's like a death every day. Yeah. Kyle DubeAnd so I really see them differently after Luke died because of the grief part. Now, I also see some people differently whenever they're bitching and moaning and complaining about something in their lives. And I'm like, Are you just sitting there thinking sometimes? “Is that seriously what you are talking about here? Like, give me a break.” Dawn Taylor“Are you fucking kidding me?” Kyle DubeBut, but, I have to step back and go, “No, that is the worst thing in their lives at this moment.” Dawn TaylorAnd at times I talk about that with clients where my clients are like, apologize for coming to me because I feel like other people have it worse. And I'm like, “No, no, no, no, no. There isn't a chart. There isn't a comparison. Your truth is your truth. What you've been through is what you've been through and how it affected you is how it affected you.” Kyle DubeRight, but maybe I'm just a bit of an asshole sometimes because I know.Dawn TaylorWe all have those moments. We all have those moments. Kyle Dube Do that all the time. Sometimes I'm like, “No, that really isn't anything to be that upset about. Like, suck it up and, like, give me a break.” Dawn TaylorOkay. My one is the, the. When someone compares the death of their animal to a child or a parent or someone, and I'm like– Kyle DubeAnd I've had that a few times. Yeah.  Dawn TaylorAnd for the for the pet lovers out there, I'm sure you're mad that I just said that. And a lot of people fully believe that you grieve them just as strong of your family. I can't agree. Kyle DubeI'm here to tell you that it's actually. It's not the same. And our dog. We have our dog because of Luke. Luke was relentless in us getting a dog and running, is the most special. Um, she is everything to all of us. Yeah. And so I understand the deep, deep love of a pet. I fully understand it, but it ain't the same. Like it just so I've had a few people do that, you know, things that get said or done. It's all around the topic of what my wife taught me. She learned it somewhere around grief illiteracy, ad and being grief literate or grief illiterate. And that's what I spoke of earlier, where, prior to Luke dying, grief was an acquaintance of mine and after Luke died, it is just literally embedded into me. Like it's it's weaved all through my every fiber of my being now, and prior to Luke dying I was illiterate and truthfully am still grief illiterate. And what I mean by grief illiterate is when people say things to you, when people compare and say, “Oh no, I remember losing our dog.” It's just such an illiterate thing to say to someone grieving deeply or things like. You know, people will say, “Oh, I understand.” And it's like, “No, you don't.” But on the flip side of all of that. We don't get mad at people. Like it hurts us, to be honest with you. But they're not intentionally trying to hurt us.  Dawn TaylorNo, they're not. Kyle DubePeople don't know how to handle grief. Our society has no clue how to handle grief. And I know this because meither did I. And truthfully, sometimes I still don't. I've right after the two year with Luke, there's a there's a person I know, and they lost their child to suicide. And I knew this person. And this, the mom reached out to me to let me know via email. Dawn. I had no idea what to say to her. I had no idea how to respond to her. Because, so I'm grief illiterate still, right? And think the reason I didn't know what to do or say is because, maybe my grief literacy has led me to realize

Why you would want to listen to this episode…Chris Boyle’s life is mainly composed of two things - finance and fatherhood. The finance-related aspect is something he does very well, having over a decade’s worth of experience in the field. However, when it comes to fatherhood, Chris admits that he still has a lot to learn and navigate through. Today, Chris bravely reveals everything about being a single dad - the gruelling schedule and work-life balance, the highs and lows, the difficult parts of being a parent and, most importantly, the things he is most thankful and grateful for.Who this for...There are not a lot of ways, outlets or resources for single fathers to express themselves and be seen and heard. The purpose of this episode is to show dads just like Chris that they are not alone. For those curious about what life is like for single dads and how fulfilling a role like that is, this episode is for you.About Dawn TaylorDawn Taylor is the professional ass-kicker, hope giver, life strategist, trauma specialist, and all-around badass. Dawn's journey into helping others heal began when she took her personal recovery from the trauma she experienced in her life into her own hands. While at times unconventional, Dawn’s strategic methods have helped hundreds heal from traumas such as issues related to infidelity,  overcoming addiction,  working through PTSD from sexual, emotional, and physical abuse, as well as helping cult survivors thrive. Dawn’s work has empowered entrepreneurs, stay-at-home moms, and CEOs alike to be superheroes in their own lives. Having completed thousands of hours of training from many professional programs, including the Robbins Madanes Training Institute, Dawn’s blunt honesty will challenge your thinking, broaden your awareness, and help you achieve the outstanding results you are worthy of.Connect with Dawn here at The Taylor Way: Consultation Call | Website | Facebook | Instagram | LinkedInGet to know Dawn on a deeper level through her book! Order HereP.S. I Made It, is a powerful story that grabs you through its lack of pretension and honesty. Every page reveals another layer of curious wonder at both Dawn’s life and the power of hope that moves within each of us. Dawn’s hope is that you use this book as a resource to deal with your struggles. Share it with someone who needs it. We all want to feel like someone understands what it’s like to suffer through something and – come out the other side. She describes her life as “horrifically beautiful and beautifully horrific. Guest BioChris Boyle is Founder and CEO of Legacy Financial Group LTD. Also known as the “Business Owner Tax Saver” He has over 16 years experience in the financial services industry including insurance, public and private markets. Through his experience he realized that the financial services industry in Canada needs some disruption. Legacy Financial Group LTD is a company that is changing the experience both clients and advisors have in our industry. This includes increased transparency, compliance shift and work/life balance to name a few. Chris is a father of 3 girls and is a sports fan and loves to cook.Guest Social LinksEmail - cboyle@legacyfg.caWebsite - www.christopherboyle.netInstagram - @food_n_financeFacebook - www.facebook.com/chrisboyleinvestmentsandinsuranceThanks for listening!Thanks so much for listening to our podcast! If you enjoyed this episode and think that others could benefit from listening, please share it using the social media buttons on this page. Do you have some feedback or questions about this episode? Leave a comment in the section below!Follow the podcastIf you want to receive new podcast episodes automatically, you can follow us on Apple Podcasts or in your favourite podcast app.Please leave us an Apple Podcasts reviewRatings and reviews from our listeners are extremely valuable to us and greatly appreciated. They help our podcast rank higher on Apple Podcasts, which exposes our show to more awesome listeners like you. If you have a minute, please leave an honest review.Views Expressed, Legal and Medical DisclaimerThis podcast (including any/all site pages, blog posts, blog comments, forums, videos, audio recordings, etc.) is not intended to replace the services of a physician, nor does it constitute a doctor-patient relationship. Information is provided for informational purposes only and is not a substitute for professional medical advice. You should not use the information on this podcast for diagnosing or treating a medical or health condition. If you have or suspect you have an urgent medical problem, promptly contact your professional healthcare provider. Any application of the recommendations in this podcast/website is at the listener/reader's discretion. The views and opinions expressed are those of guests and do not necessarily reflect the opinion or policy of Dawn Taylor, The Taylor Way and or its Associates. The before mentioned are not liable for any direct or indirect claim or loss.   TranscriptDawn TaylorHey, hey. It is me, your podcast host, Dawn Taylor. And today we don't have an amazing floating head this week. We've had a few floating heads, anonymous guests lately, but today we have Chris Boyle. We, guys, you need to know this guy. He is such an amazing guy. So, we're going to be dealing with the topic of - is single parenting from a dad's perspective, the lack of support in this lovely country of ours, and probably globally for that, but also like the guilt and entrepreneurship and divorce and separation and all of the aspects of that that go into it. But from a dad's perspective, instead of a mom's. So who is Chris? Chris is the founder and CEO of Legacy Financial Group. He is the business owner tax saver. He's been in the industry for over 16 years. He is a dad of three amazing little girls. I met one of them, and she is just the cutest little thing you've ever seen. He's a massive sports fan, loves to cook, and is just a huge supporter of business owners in general roles. So if you want to find him, go check out our show notes. You know that. But let's dive in. Welcome to the show, Chris.Chris BoyleThank you very much for having me, Dawn.Dawn TaylorYou're welcome. So we were talking one day about being a dad, being a business owner and also being a single parent of three kids, three beautiful little girls, and everything that goes into that. So, where do you want to start? Tell us your story.Chris BoyleYeah, well, I won't go back too far, but I ended up in Edmonton about 2005. I did play high level sports, and that's how I ended up here in the city on scholarship and, as going through my schooling. I actually started in my industry, in the finance industry before I finished schooling and eventually met a girl here in the city and stayed, I'm from southern Alberta, and had a family. And like a lot of people, you learn a lot about yourself and relationships through potentially a long courting period or dating period or marriage period with your significant other, and we had just realized that it didn't make sense anymore, and so we decided to separate and eventually divorce and through our marriage, we had three amazing young girls, beautiful girls and what some of the challenges were, obviously, is you're dealing with this internal aspect of "am I happy? Is it my marriage that's not causing me happy? Is it external forces that are not causing me happy? Is it stuff I'm not doing that's reducing my happiness? Or not there?" And ultimately, if you're not on the same page and not really willing to figure that out, usually it ends in divorce or separation. And that's kind of what happened, and what I wasn't prepared for was the aftermath of that and how that affected both business, parenting scheduling, which is, can be a nightmare at times, trying to coordinate everything.Dawn TaylorThey're not even teenagers yet.Chris BoyleNo, they're in extracurricular activities, but not to the point of how crazy I know it can be. So that's a brief, I guess, quick history on where we are.Dawn TaylorSo, let's dive into that. So, in Canada. Canada right now, this is an article I found from 2018. So, I mean, this is a long time ago. There are 330,000 Canadian families that are headed by single dads with one or more kids under the age of 25, and in 2022, 1.84 million single-parent families. Those are some pretty high numbers and I know one of the things we originally talked about was there's no support and there really isn't a lot of support. So, with your divorce, what is your separation in regards to custody?Chris BoyleYeah. So we're 50-50, and I'll say this, I do have a great co-parenting relationship with my ex.Dawn TaylorYou do.Chris BoyleAnd our communication regarding the kids is I couldn't have asked for a better situation post-divorce. The challenge really is, and you kind of alluded to it, is that guilt factor, though. And some of that has been portrayed to me from my ex and we've communicated about it, but also my kids. Like, during COVID I was able, because of the flexibility of my job, not work a ton. And so when I was with them, I was with them, and we did stuff together, activities together. It didn't matter if it was Monday at 11:00 a.m. Or if it was Friday at 06:00 p.m.. When I was with them, I was as present as I could be and part of that was that guilt, and what happened was my business suffered, right? Over that year and a half time frame. But I know some of the connections that I built with my girls, I'll forever have that where other people during that time, whether they were in my situation or not, they were gone, and the kids were always around. So, there's pros and cons, I guess, to that. But the big challenge I had was, there was this expectation I felt that was on me when I had my girls. That was my sole purpose and if I was asking for help outside of what I could do, I was either failing them or I was failing other people who expected me to be there all the time.Dawn TaylorAnd let's unpack that for a sec. Who was putting the expectations on you? And do you think that they're different on a man than they are on a woman? Let's just get all controversial all up in here this morning.Chris BoyleSo, yeah, there's a lot there. I guess the expectations put on me. Some of it was myself because I knew I had the flexibility with my job, but a lot of it was projected from my ex-wife. Now, her and I have had communication and talks about this, but it probably wasn't until at least after a year where I was really starting to be able to dissect what was going on, how I was feeling, and how to try to communicate that back and in a constructive way, I guess would be the best way. Because I know from her end too, she's dealing with some of the same challenges, too, and there's some of that guilt when they're gone from her. She wants to make sure that they're looked after, and she trusts me. There's no issue there but when you've got three young girls and when we first divorced, they were six, four and two.Dawn TaylorOh, just little.Chris BoyleYeah. And so anyone that's been around a two year old and a four year old knows there needs to be pretty constant supervision.Dawn TaylorYes.Chris BoyleOr you get situations where they think the white walls are a chalkboard, right?Dawn TaylorYeah.Chris BoyleSo, I can understand it from that fact, but yeah, there was a lot of pressure I was putting on myself. There was a lot of pressure that was being put on me from outside parties. And it was just really trying to figure out everything on how I was feeling, how to deal with it, how to even communicate with the girls in certain situations. Here's what dad needs from you. So we got creative at times, but it's tough. And ultimately, I'm in a situation where I did have to pay alimony or am paying alimony support and child support and so you still have financial obligations almost more than ever now, because you're almost trying to fund two households, and you've got that pressure and you've got the pressure of trying to co parent three young girls. And, yeah, it's overwhelming. And from our country's standpoint, you're right. I don't think there's enough support from provincial or federal governments, but I don't even know how or if there's tax breaks they could come up with or something like that. But, compound that with our rising inflation costs, compound that with the mental challenge that COVID was, the social challenge. Right? It was tough.Dawn TaylorSo, do you think even though more than tax breaks? More than that. So, my sister and her husband adopted four kids, and my brother-in-law was a stay at home parent because of their careers. It made way more sense for my sister to work she was a nurse than for him. And I know for him, it was like it was all mommy and me groups. Right? So more than even, like, the taxes and more than any of the stuff that the government's doing. Do you think, as a society, there isn't the same man to man peer support when it comes to being a single parent, when it comes to being alone with your kids? So many of the women in my life that are divorced or separated had kids on their own. There's so much support within each other, right? There's always, like, the playdates, and there's the you take the kids this many days a week, and I'll take them this many days a week, or I just need a break, so can you take them for the weekend? And there's such an intense level of support within moms. There's single mom parenting groups and single mom everything. And, like, I remember hearing from my sister that he would struggle with things like that because he'd show up and he was the only guy in a room with, like, 20 moms and their kids, and he was the only man. And it's looked at different, right? Like, you don't ever think about, I was talking to a friend a little while ago. We were driving past this amazing park and I said, "man, what I wouldn't do to just go sit there and hang out." And he's like, "Yeah, you could. No one will call the cops. But if I go sit there, someone's for sure calling the cops." And I was like, that is such a crazy statement. But it's so true, right? There's such bias. There's so many crazy beliefs on that, that as a single man sitting in a park, there's this massive judgment put on it versus a single woman sitting in a park.Chris BoyleYes.Dawn TaylorBut that's really known, right? Like, that all ties into this, where it's like, what is the gap? What is that gap, that missing piece that's made it so that men raising kids is seen as something so different than a woman raising kids.Chris BoyleYeah.Dawn TaylorAnd that support. What are your thoughts? What have you experienced?Chris BoyleSo, my experience on that is a couple of things. So, one you had mentioned, yes, there's tons of mum groups, mum support groups and stuff like that and they're fantastic, and if you get the right mix of women in those groups, it's so positive and so supportive. I've also talked to mums across the board, whether single or divorced or still together, and there's also times where they find that practice extremely draining because of the judgment that they feel from other women in that group, right? If they're not parenting to the level that somebody else in the group,Dawn Taylor100% the competition parenting.Chris BoyleWhere I have found and I've come across a lot of men that are gone through divorce, have children, or have children and might not be the breadwinner in the family, whether it be through clients or friends. And it's much tougher to get them to open up, to be in that environment but once they're in that environment and this is just from my experience and conversations I've had, yeah, just to back up there, I have found that the bonds are almost stronger with the men who come together in that situation because, guys might not want to admit this is they will bring their walls down if they know other people are in the same situation as them and there's less judgment. And the conversations that I've had, especially I've been fortunate enough to meet with some people who are successful entrepreneurs that went through divorce with children five, six years ago. And those conversations were probably some of the deepest and most heart-pouring conversations I've had with anyone because it's a similar conversation that we're able to have, and similar experience, and at no point have I felt judgy towards somebody else on how they're raising their kid. Each person is their own situation, and it was very eye-opening just to have those types of conversations with people and build those, you know, relationships and to see what might be able to come out of it. I like your analogy about, yeah, if a guy's sitting in a park, there's something wrong with it. Ironically enough, as soon as you said that and just the different roles. And if it's reversed, how much that changes the perspective. I did take my girls to the new Barbie movie a couple nights ago and I had heard some stuff about it, you know, and I was very conscious as I'm watching the show, not just from a pure entertainment value. You know, I was thinking, if the roles were reversed in this movie, and men were playing the role of, you know, Barbie and Barbie was playing the role of Ken, it would have been up in arms on the perspective on how men were treated in that movie be compared to if it was, well, reversed.Dawn TaylorOh, interesting.Chris BoyleRight? There would have been massive uproar. But, because it was, if anyone's seen the movie, basically derogatory towards men, which I don't have an issue with, but it's that perspective of the patriarchy. It's the perspective of what does society deem acceptable? And for, if a guy wants to go to a park, why can't he go to a park? He's not doing anything wrong. But it's that perspective of why is a man there alone? As opposed to, "Oh, a woman's there reading a book. How lovely. She must not have kids and want to be around kids type thing."Dawn TaylorWell, not only that, but is anyone looking to be like, oh, I wonder which kids are that man's? Right? And it is there's such a stigma around that. It's funny because I hear that from you, I haven't seen the movie, but from you, it's like it's derogatory towards men. And I've heard from women it's like, the most empowering movie they've seen in years. And the minute people said that, I was like, oh, no, I'm very intrigued to watch this, because it feels like we can't ever have, I don't know, maybe this is just my perspective on it. We can't ever have one without the other. Right. Like, either we empower women or we empower men. And it's like, what about empowering both? To empower one doesn't mean we have to emasculate the other.Chris BoyleYeah. And they do try to in the movie, they try at the very end to get a sense of that. But, empowerment, I think, should be for all it doesn't matter. Gender, whatever. But once again, I don't have an issue with the movie. It's a piece of art. Directors, writers, they have their own way of telling the story. But, from especially in today's society, if that movie just would have been reversed, it would have received so much uproar. But, it's perspective and men, you generally, we aren't supposed to be emotional. We aren't supposed to be in that type of role. And if you are, kind of where historically, do people feel less of a man or whatever you want to call it because they're in a role that most men males aren't in? And I think that's crazy. There are women out there and in couple of situations where it makes way more sense based on them being the breadwinners and them to provide and men are great parents, too, right?Dawn TaylorSo, I love that line right there. Like, men are great parents, too. Before we hopped on here today, I was talking to a friend of mine, and I was like, "Yeah, we're cutting up a couple of podcasts today. I was excited to talk to you guys." And we were talking about that, and he goes, even in my chat groups, it's so often that it's like, "Oh, no, sorry. Can't do that. I have to babysit the kids." And he goes and I get mad and I'll call them out every time and be like, "No, you mean you're parenting your kids?" Like, you're not babysitting your kids. You're parenting your kids. A babysitter is a hired person you bring in from outside, right? And what are your thoughts on that language that we use? And do you think it's derogatory to men in a way?Chris BoyleYeah. So I have been guilty of using that verbiage in the past 100%.Dawn TaylorOh. It's ingrained in our societyChris BoyleFor me, and this was all part of going through everything that I did with the divorce and separation. How was I viewing certain situations in my relationship? How was I viewing certain interactions with my kids? And one of the things that I realized is that term babysitting, I felt was a derogatory term where, for me, you're telling your brain you're having to do something that you don't want to do.Dawn TaylorYeah.Chris BoyleI started replacing it consciously and practicing gratitude. I practiced a lot of gratitude, through COVID especially, and everything else. And now when somebody asks, "Hey, do you want to meet us to go out for dinner?" And if I've got the girls, I'll say, "No, I get to hang out with my girls tonight."Dawn TaylorOh, I like that language better.Chris BoyleRight? And our brains are easily tricked, as many people don't want to think they are, and starting to conditioning it and then relating that action with being gracious or having gratitude towards that act. So, I do think it's derogatory and we get caught up in it. But, I've just focused on changing that verbiage and changing how I perceive that act of spending time with my girls. But, I was also extremely gracious knowing that my situation I had the girls. When I'd have the girls, I would be as present as I could with the girls.Dawn TaylorYeah. So what is the balance that you have found being a dad, being with these three beautiful little girls, but also as a business owner and an entrepreneur? It is very different in many ways, right? Because I feel like if you had the quote-unquote job that you had to go to Monday to Friday, nine to five, it would be seen as incredibly different because it would just be an expected thing. Like, of course the kids go to daycare, of course the kids go to a babysitter. Of course that's what happens. And you go to work and that's how you pay the bills. Done. That is this very tangible thing that makes sense to people. But when as a business owner, and you manage your own calendar and you manage your own schedule, and you are very successful, right? But that can take more hours and that can take more time or help you buy back your hours and time, right? And this is something that comes up with a lot of entrepreneurs. It's just because I work from home or just because I manage my own calendar doesn't mean I don't have a job the same as you.Chris BoyleYeah.Dawn TaylorRight? How have you worked on the balance of that and figuring out like, "No, it's okay. Even the weeks that I have the girls, I still have to work."Chris BoyleYeah. I think the best and shortest answer is I don't have a freaking clue yet. And it's a process. A couple of things. There's some people that have asked me, "Why don't you just hire childcare?" Well, if anyone has ever looked to see how much it would cost for three girls for daycare during the summer months, it's almost two grand a month for full time. It's insane. And based on my income, I don't qualify for any--Dawn TaylorSubsidies and stuff.Chris BoyleAnd then on top of that, I've got alimony and spousal support that I'm paying. So there's a time frame until that's done where I have to be creative. During summer, it's been really tough. One of the things I have done is fully relocated my office to my house and essentially created an office in my bedroom because it's the only door I can lock in the entire house. I've been training the girls to know when I'm in the room with the door locked, I'm working. If it's an emergency, you, obviously you can come. So that's one aspect. My youngest, Peyton, she's five, she's going into kindergarten. So that's going to give some reprieve, I guess. Yeah. But she's been in preschool the last two years. And to give you an idea, on a typical day, from September to June, when I've got the girls, you know, we wake up around seven, get ready, pack lunches. I've got the girls actually trained where pack their own lunches with supervision, so they're not putting just straight candy. So, that deals with some of the duties I would have. At 8:30, I drop off the two girls at their school and I drive another 15 minutes, drop Peyton off at nine. And then I have to pick Peyton back up at 11:15, drive back home, usually make her lunch, and then between, depending on the day, 2:30 and three, I pick up the other two girls. So in terms of trying to allocate time towards projects, meetings, it's so chopped up. It's tough, and so what used to do is drop Peyton off, go to the gym for an hour, go to the coffee shop and do emails, some administrative type duties, pick Peyton up, make her lunch, and then if I can even attempt to get, like, a Zoom meeting in, do that and then pick up the girls, and then it's full parenting time. That's just reality right now. And so, really trying to coordinate as many meetings as I can on days I don't have them, and days I do have them focus more on tasks that I can do. With them around, where I know I'm going to get interrupted every 15 minutes, 20 minutes, and just have to work with it. But, I know a lot of other families out there, they're struggling, they're taking on second jobs right now to deal with inflation, rising costs. I know it's a struggle. I'm just fortunate enough where I can at least do it and come home and be around them and not have to be away from them. But, yeah, if I ever find that perfect balance and I can replicate it or have other people replicate it, I won't have to work another day in my life.Dawn TaylorRight?Chris BoyleA lot of money. But, yeah, it's an ongoing challenge and I don't know, it's trying to find what works for my situation, and it's constantly ongoing.Dawn TaylorIt's part of that, releasing so many expectations of what we thought life was going to look like, what life should look like, what, it means as a dad, as the caregiver, the provider, the worker, right? There's so much around that business growth. I know that's a struggle, especially as entrepreneurs and I see it all the time with clients, is looking at all the other entrepreneurs around you or the other business owners around you. They're the people in our industries and how fast they're building their business or how, what they're doing, and I don't know if it's ego or just having to really sit back and be like, you know what? I need to give myself some grace right now to know that, “You know what? Maybe this year isn't going to be the year I double business. Maybe this year isn't going to be the year that I land all the biggest contracts and I do all those things.” And that's okay, because this is the year that I spent a lot of time with my kids.Chris BoyleYeah, I think there's some of that. There's some of that, where my mental, I guess, thought process really changed before, and I'll be fully open on this. But before going through my divorce, it was, we have to have that big house, we have to have that nice vehicle, the keeping up with the Joneses thing, right? The materialistic aspects.  Dawn TaylorHuge. right?  Chris BoyleAnd I've talked about this, written about this on some of my blogs, talked about with clients. Like, in Canada, we are built to fail in terms of an individual person based on how much marketing has thrown down our throats, how easy it is to get credit and pay 19% interest but for somebody who's got a really good business idea that's driven, for them to get a business loan at 18 or 25 is almost impossible. I think credit card debt to go spending on crap at 18. So, we're constantly inundated by, I need that next shiny toy, or stuff like that. I was guilty of that. That’s something, starting to make good income, and then going through the divorce and realizing. You know, we need money, we need stuff to pay the bills to survive. But there's so much other aspects that are more important. And for me, going through that process was my mental health. It was happiness. It was, I'm going to say living more, and what I mean by living more is truly being present in the experiences I was having. Instead of just going on a trip or going to an event or concert where you think you're releasing from your day-to-day life, but you're not present, your mind's still elsewhere. And so those were some aspects I really tried, you know, focusing on the perception of the all-American or all-Canadian family and not living within that was never actually a thought for me. It wasn't “I'm not the traditional family. Something's wrong with me.” That was never there. And I was very fortunate to grow up in a household where my parents are still in love with each other. They're mushy at times. Still, they're celebrating their 45th wedding anniversary.  Dawn TaylorAmazing. Chris BoyleGrew up in a very positive household. I think maybe some of the aspects on our separation-slash-time frame from when things were not good to when things officially ended, that might have drug on a little bit, mainly because of the kids. I don't know if I would say it was because of the family concept but in that situation, I was still able to be around my girls 100% of the time, even though other aspects of family life weren't great.  Dawn TaylorYeah. So for somebody else going through this, what do you recommend for them?  Chris BoyleFirst thing is try to be as self conscious as possible on what you're going through, what you're feeling and learn, even if it’s journaling, writing stuff, on how you're feeling and what aspects are making you feel a certain way that you can self reflect on. And then talk to somebody, whether it's counselor, hopefully a counselor, because sometimes friends have best interest in mind, but usually it's a biased view, or always, they put in their own experiences in their advice. So that would be one thing, and then the other is really practice gratitude. Even if it's little stuff. There's one book that I read, I think it's called The Happiness Effect. I can get it somewhere. I'll get you to send me the link for that so we can put it in the show notes for people. Chris BoyleSure. And it was a really good book that started getting you to do little things. Um, even just 15 minutes walk a day, you know, taking pictures of stuff that makes you smile and then reflecting on it through a journal or digital aspect. So that was something that really helps. And then take time to be by yourself, like when you are alone. I know some people that are single, the first thing they want to do is get back out in the dating scene. And the nightmare that that is. Dawn TaylorSo easy right now.  Chris BoyleIt’s really taking that time and being comfortable with yourself and take that time to work on yourself. One of the best things I did is me and a buddy, we went down to Mexico for ten days, and this was a year and a half after I fully separated and stuff like that. And it was just nice to get away. Plus, that was kind of right near the end of COVID and stuff like that. Um, and just appreciating a trip like that. Being with a friend that supported me, not in terms of supported me, just knew what I was going through was just there and just we ended up meeting about five couples from all over North America where we were down there, and we still keep contact with all of them. We're planning another trip together as a group. So, just kind of the memories, the people I met and stuff like that was great thing. So, yeah, self-reflect, practice gratitude and take a trip. Dawn TaylorSpend some time alone. Spend some time alone figuring out what you really want and what you want to do moving forward. Is there, raising your daughters, what is it you really want to instill in them? Because I often will talk to people about, especially when going through a divorce or in building business or doing different things, is there's kind of two sides to it? Often people are like, “No, my kids need 100% of my time and my attention. And that's what I need them to see is that they're my number one.” And other people are like, “No, I really want my kids to see what it means to work hard and to build a business and to see that. I want my kids to see that in me and I'm going to explain that to them and have them incorporated in it.” What is your mindset on that and what is it you want to instill in your kids?  Chris BoyleYeah, so the first part, it's finding that balance again and that's tough.  Aria is nine, she's my oldest, and she can definitely comprehend stuff. Like I can have pretty deep conversations with her. And she was the one that came up to me a couple weeks ago where I was on the computer working, kids are home. And she's like, “Daddy, when are you going to spend time with us?” And so I had to sit down with her and have a conversation and “This is what Daddy needs to do to pay for where we live. If you want to do extracurricular stuff, we need money to do that.” And so she understood to a certain degree. But then there's that emotional, logical thing that for a nine year old that's going through probably some hormonal changes and everything else. You know, we're here. You're here. We want you to spend time with us, not do what you need to do.  Dawn TaylorTotally.  Chris BoyleSo there's that. But I did have the conversation with her, too, is “I want you guys to work hard. I want you guys to not be dependent on anyone. And there's no sexism here, but whether it's a guy or a girl or me or your mom, you guys need to learn how to be self sufficient. And part of that is working hard and being passionate about something.” So to answer your second question, what do I want to instill in my girls? Follow their passion. And we're in a world where if you have a passion, you can find a way to make a living from it. Doesn't matter what it is. There's a way you can do it. Um, so, you know, there's a ton of other stuff, but at the end of the day, if they're following what they really want, and it's something that they truly are passionate about. There's a certain level of happiness that they carry with them, as opposed to, like many people, you probably let something that you really wanted to chase off to the side because of other commitments or society and how it perceives you. If you were to chase that compared to what you should be doing or what society as a whole-  Dawn TaylorThe should be’s. Chris Boyle Yeah, that would be the short, quick answer, I guess, on that.  Dawn TaylorIs there any support, short of government tax and all that, right? Wherever you're listening to this, because I know where people are from, I don't think there's a government out there that isn't a Gong Show when it comes to that or that just isn't a Gong Show in general right now. Are there any supports that you think need to be introduced or thought of or as friends, as siblings, as a society that we could give to dads that would step it up a little bit. That would help. I mean, it could be a reaction. It could be a response to something. It could be stepping in to help the babysitter invite you into a parent group. What kind of supports would you like to see or do you think need to happen?  Chris BoyleYeah, well, just to quickly touch on the government stuff, I do think and this is across all boards this isn't just for divorced dads, but mental health access should be free in Canada. I think that we've got enough resource if it's done effectively and efficiently because we waste so much dollars, especially on the medical side of things, from a government standpoint. But that's another conversation for another whole- Dawn TaylorAnother podcast.  Chris BoyleIn terms of support from society, guys might not want to hear this, but we have to take a lot of ownership ourselves first. I think we have to be the ones to change the stereotype and not care what society thinks and do what we know is best for us and to find like-minded people that we want to associate with on that front and learn from. If you're a family member of somebody going through a situation like this, I'm in a unique situation where I do all the cooking, I cook. But, there are a lot of men who don't know how to turn on a stove if they've been with a wife that does all the cooking. So don't ask. Just show up with food and stay here. That's one thing I think that could help a lot of guys in that situation. The second, and I'm fortunate I do have this situation, I've got aunts, not my aunts, but aunts of the kids, my grandparents. They'll ask if the kids want to have a sleepover or one of them has a sleepover.  Dawn TaylorOh, nice. Chris BoyleThat just alleviates some of the, I guess pressure, but also gives the kids a different experience.. Outside of that is just be positive. Like, have a positive aura. I know it's easy to be biased in a situation like this where one party is obviously closely tied to the man or the woman through a divorce or separation. Don't bash the other party because your kids? They're around that they hear that and to just make sure that they're in a positive surrounding. And at the end of the day, you're tied to your partner for the rest of your life whether you're married to them or not. And so really try rebuilding that friendship.  Dawn TaylorThat is a whole conversation in and of itself right there. I work with kids ages twelve and

All her life, Christina Monai has found her identity in her wifehood and motherhood. However, her world changed forever when she went through a divorce. Through the trials she went through in this difficult time, she discovered more about herself and her place in the world. Today’s episode of the Taylor Way Talks is a look at the perspective of a single mom and how it’s never too late to find yourself and move on to bigger, better chapters in your life after walking through the fire for the things and people you love the most. Content Warning: In this episode, we discuss some topics that listeners may find difficult such as divorce. Why you would want to listen to this episodeAll her life, Christina Monai has found her identity in her wifehood and motherhood. However, her world changed forever when she went through a divorce. Through the trials she went through in this difficult time, she discovered more about herself and her place in the world. Today’s episode of the Taylor Way Talks is a look at the perspective of a single mom and how it’s never too late to find yourself and move on to bigger, better chapters in your life after walking through the fire for the things and people you love the most. Who this for...This episode is for people who have gone through a divorce and are struggling or have struggled to raise children all on their own, specifically single mothers. The topic in today’s episode is for those who not only seek a way to find their own light in the darkness but also for those who seek community and friendship when going through such dark times.  About Dawn TaylorDawn Taylor is the professional ass-kicker, hope giver, life strategist, trauma specialist, and all-around badass. Dawn's journey into helping others heal began when she took her personal recovery from the trauma she experienced in her life into her own hands. While at times unconventional, Dawn’s strategic methods have helped hundreds heal from traumas such as issues related to infidelity,  overcoming addiction,  working through PTSD from sexual, emotional, and physical abuse, as well as helping cult survivors thrive. Dawn’s work has empowered entrepreneurs, stay-at-home moms, and CEOs alike to be superheroes in their own lives. Having completed thousands of hours of training from many professional programs, including the Robbins Madanes Training Institute, Dawn’s blunt honesty will challenge your thinking, broaden your awareness, and help you achieve the outstanding results you are worthy of. Connect with Dawn here at The Taylor Way: Consultation Call | Website | Facebook | Instagram | LinkedIn Get to know Dawn on a deeper level through her book! Order Here P.S. I Made It, is a powerful story that grabs you through its lack of pretension and honesty. Every page reveals another layer of curious wonder at both Dawn’s life and the power of hope that moves within each of us. Dawn’s hope is that you use this book as a resource to deal with your struggles. Share it with someone who needs it. We all want to feel like someone understands what it’s like to suffer through something and – come out the other side. She describes her life as “horrifically beautiful and beautifully horrific. Guest BioChristina is a videographer by day and a single mom of two by night. She's very passionate about her work and helping business owners share the story of their business with the world! She's also a dedicated mother and is so unbelievably thankful for her village!Guest Social LinksInstagram - www.instagram.com/lifesongfilmsFacebook - www.facebook.com/lifesongfilmsLinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/christina-monai/ Thanks for listening!Thanks so much for listening to our podcast! If you enjoyed this episode and think that others could benefit from listening, please share it using the social media buttons on this page. Do you have some feedback or questions about this episode? Leave a comment in the section below! Follow the podcastIf you want to receive new podcast episodes automatically, you can follow us on Apple Podcasts or in your favourite podcast app. Please leave us an Apple Podcasts reviewRatings and reviews from our listeners are extremely valuable to us and greatly appreciated. They help our podcast rank higher on Apple Podcasts, which exposes our show to more awesome listeners like you. If you have a minute, please leave an honest review. Views Expressed, Legal and Medical DisclaimerThis podcast (including any/all site pages, blog posts, blog comments, forums, videos, audio recordings, etc.) is not intended to replace the services of a physician, nor does it constitute a doctor-patient relationship. Information is provided for informational purposes only and is not a substitute for professional medical advice. You should not use the information on this podcast for diagnosing or treating a medical or health condition. If you have or suspect you have an urgent medical problem, promptly contact your professional healthcare provider. Any application of the recommendations in this podcast/website is at the listener/reader's discretion. The views and opinions expressed are those of guests and do not necessarily reflect the opinion or policy of Dawn Taylor, The Taylor Way and or its Associates. The before mentioned are not liable for any direct or indirect claim, loss. TranscriptDawn TaylorI am your host, Dawn Taylor, and today we are talking to the amazing Christina. So, topic today, when your life shifts massively, I'm talking like 180 degrees and all control feels lost, how do you get it back? How do you actually walk through that journey? Before we get started, I want to tell you a little bit about our guest today so that you get to be as excited as I am. Christina is the owner of Life Song Films. She's a videographer by day, a single mom of two by night. She's very passionate about her work and helping business owners share their stories. She's also a dedicated mom. She has an incredible village. Pretty sure, if I remember correctly. She also rides a motorbike, which always discerns, like, a little extra respect on my part, because I think that that's awesome. But, I also am honored and proud to call her a friend. So, I just want to say welcome to the show, Christina.Christina MonaiThank you. Thank you so much, and actually, I think we're up to a good start because I'm already tearing up. So, that was a beautiful intro. Thank you.Dawn TaylorYou're welcome. So when we were first talking about you coming on the podcast, one of the things we discussed was a lot of people go through divorce. A lot of people go through shifts in life. A lot of people go through all of these things, but no one talks about it. A lot of people don't talk about it. And you ran into a situation where your life didn't just shift like, your life, took like a 90 degree or 180 degree turn suddenly. And really like, we're going to just dive right in. Let's talk about the day that your life shifted really hard.Christina MonaiYes. It was funny when you were talking about like a 90 degree shift in a 180. I'm pretty sure it was 360 at least three or four times in that first little while there. But, it started after a family dinner on Sunday night after everyone had gone home. And I sensed something wasn't right. Men and women all have intuition, but I think women have a little more of it. We just we know we know when something is off or wrong. So I asked, "What's going on?" And my then-husband said, "I don't think I'm in love with you anymore." And my stomach just kind of fell to the floor. And I thought "What?" Whatever. I was expecting him to say, it certainly was not that. And we had a very serious conversation about that. And, he'd gotten to a place where he didn't want to try anymore and I didn't realize he was that far in that thought process, and we had been in counseling to get things on track. Our marriage was not perfect by any means, but we recognized we need to work on things and I thought we were progressing forward with that. And so when that came about, it really shook my world. It absolutely did. But, not totally, because I still had the thought of, "Oh, we'll work through this because we have before, we'll continue to do that." But over the course of the next few days, it became apparent he was not in that same headspace as me. And we had another session with our counselor. Um, we had a session. I think it was joint first. I know he had a solo session, and he came back from that and he came upstairs and he sat down beside me, started to cry, and he said, "I want a separation divorce." And that's when my world just shattered. It did, because he was my first boyfriend, my first kiss, my first love, my first everything. I never dated anybody before him.Dawn TaylorWow.Christina MonaiAnd in my mind, we were on track to just go through life together. And to hear that just and I was surprised at the time because I've shared the story before, but I don't share that moment very often. And even now, talking about it, I can feel my eyes are kind of tearing up a little bit because it was such a massive event, right. It's just the person that you think you're going to go through life with that you love so much, and they're not giving that back to you. And I'd never gone through that before. I'd never gone through the process of a breakup and so to be faced with a breakup, my very first breakup was the end of my marriage was pretty earth shattering. It was devastating.Dawn TaylorJarring. How long have you guys been together at that point?Christina MonaiSo we had been together for almost 16 years and married for almost twelve. So I had met him, started dating him when I was 19. And so it was a long time. It was almost getting close to half my life I'd been with him, you know, so to have that go, what hit me first and looking back on it now, I realized I couldn't identify it at the time, but it was anger. And I'd never been angry like that at him before, and it scared me a bit, and so what I did in the moment, I pushed it down and I didn't yell. I didn't let the anger out. I was just very calm, and I kept everything inside. And it was this feeling of, "You are not safe anymore. You are not safe to show my emotions to. You are not safe to share things with." And so in that moment, it was that feeling of my heart closing up a bitt, and that for me, being a heart-centered person, that actually really hurt. That really hurt to have that, because I feel things so deeply, and to feel that was just, oh, I'm tearing up remembering that, because that was such a dark day, and I'd gone through some dark days before. I experienced miscarriage in my marriage and gone through the loss of more than one baby. And so those were dark days. But that moment in particular, that was my darkest. That was my darkest, because the person I thought was going to fight the battle of life with me was putting down his shield and his sword and saying, "No, you're out here by yourself now." And that was super scary. So there was anger. There was fear. There was a lot of fear. Oh, man, so much fear. Because at that point, I'd been a stay at home mom mostly. I'd worked a little bit, but I hadn't worked a lot. And so having been a stay at home mom, it's, what am I going to do now? I had no idea what I was going to do. I had no idea I was going to live where I was going to live. Like, everything just was so up in the air. And for someone who needs to feel grounded and safe and secure. That's very important to me, that feeling of just basically being like I was tossed out on a cliff and there was nothing below me, there was nothing around me. And it was like I was trying to grab onto something. And then my next thought was of my kids, um, because I knew what this would do to them. And at the time, my daughter was about seven and my son was about three or four, and they were old enough they were old enough to know what it was going to be like to have mom and dad together and then have mom and dad apart. And so, that was my thought at the time, was, "What are we going to tell the kids? I don't know how I'm going to do this." And going through that part of me was, and looking back on it, you always look back with 2020, right? And even now, when I'm looking back on that moment, I'm seeing things a little differently because it's been about four years since it happened. So, even today, looking back on it, I'm recognizing new things, which is actually kind of interesting to look back and and think, "Oh, yeah, that was what that feeling was." And it was fear for them. It was fear for my kids as to how they were going to be. So really, in that moment, I was realizing I was going to have to grieve the loss of this relationship and this friendship along with my kids. And that was something that scared the hell out of me, because I didn't know how I was going to do that. I didn't know how I was going to do that. And so over the course of the next week or so, he asked me if that night, after he told me he wanted a separation divorce, he asked me if I wanted him to leave. And I said, "Yeah, I think that would be a good idea."Dawn TaylorGreat. You know how often I hear this? "Oh, yeah, I want a divorce. Do you want me to leave?"Christina Monai"Yeah, you actually already left." And you know what? It's funny, because I was very much a people pleaser back then. And even now, looking back, I'm really proud of past me for being like, "No." That was like the start of me. Speaking up and standing up and saying, "No, I'm not okay with this." And, so he left for about a week, and he stayed with a friend, and we told the kids that this friend needed dad for a bit, and so dad was going to go stay there for a while. And then he came back and I told him, I said, "You're going to tell the kids. I'll be there, and I'll be there with them, but you're going to be the one to tell them." And we actually met with a counselor, the same counselor, marriage counselor we've been working with to figure out how we were going to do this. And she said to tell the kids that mom and dad can't be together anymore. And. to not place blame and not say, well, dad is the one who wanted this. That was very hard for me that was very hard for me to do, because after he told them, obviously that was the secondmoment that just kind of broke me a little bit, was seeing how it affected them. And I remember my son seemed to kind of take it in. I chuckle a bit because he seemed to take it in, and it was like, "Okay, can I go play now?"Dawn TaylorAmazing.Christina MonaiSo, for that, I was grateful. But my daughter had a really tough time, very tough time. She was really not okay. And after we answered a few of her questions, she went upstairs as well. And then he said, "Okay, well, I'm going to go." And, away he went, and so I stayed, and I'm talking with the kids about it. But that was one of the hardest things I have ever had to go through, and that includes losing my unborn babies. That was the most difficult thing I had to go through because it's been continuous. And just in the last year, things have really started to settle down. So that was about three years of processing and healing and working through that and my kids, too. And trying, that's the thing. Trying to heal and process at the same time as your kids. Good Lord, if there are more people out there who are doing that and you're listening to this, I see you. It's one of the hardest things you'll go through. Exactly. And even when you're processing grief with family, it's a bit different when you're a parent, because you have this perception in your brain that you need to be the strong one, and you need to be the one who is carrying the weight and making it okay, and mom doesn't break. Right? There's this perception. And I think that's actually a sideline of something we don't talk about, is that it's okay for parents to cry in front of their kids. It's okay for parents to share emotions with their kids. It's okay for parents to say, "Look, I'm hurting, I'm sad, I'm upset, I'm angry. Nothing to do with you guys. But I'm feeling these feelings, and I'm crying and I'm upset, and it's okay." And I think I had a friend tell me that because I was thinking I had to be the strong person. I had to just shut it off and hide my crying and all of that. And I actually I'm so grateful to this friend who told me that because I think that's what really helped my kids heal was because I made it okay for them to feel what they were feeling because they saw mom dealing with it. And it is okay.Dawn TaylorSo let's just pause there for a second. I say this all the time. Our kids today don't know how to grieve. They don't know how to heal. They don't know how to process emotions. And I don't care if I get canceled over this. It is because parents is because adults. It is because we are so busy having the glass of wine to get through the moment, bottling up the emotions, going out and doing all of our grieving outside of the home, or not actually doing any healing work ourselves, that our kids don't ever actually see it. They need to understand that, for example, like, if you lose your job, you're allowed to grieve, you're allowed to be upset, you're allowed to be angry, and then how do you overcome that?Christina MonaiExactlyDawn TaylorRight? The grieving is hard. How do you overcome that? But I also want to just backtrack a second and say, thank you for being so vulnerable and honest on how hard it was because one of the things that I see all the time is almost this weird celebration of divorce, where it's like, "Oh, it's going to feel so good, it's going to be so amazing." And, yes, sometimes when it's a very toxic environment or you're married to a narcissist or there are a lot of very damaging things going on in the household, yes, sometimes you really need to focus on that. But it doesn't matter. At the end of the day, something died. There is a grieving process that has to happen and not everybody just wants to go out and burn the dress and celebrate the end of it. And it's okay. You'll get someone better and it's okay because it's going to be okay.Christina MonaiThat phrase, just, that you'll find someone better or best. No, that's probably one of the worst things you can say to somebody going through a depression unless they are like, I know, right? It annoys me a bit because even those, like you said, who are okay with it and they're celebrating it sure, okay, then absolutely. Read that vibe. But to come in when someone is grieving and you can tell that they are having a tough time with it, don't say stuff like that because it's not just grieving the loss of the marriage, you're grieving the loss of a friendship at that point because you don't know what's going to happen. In my situation, I'm civil with my ex and we've now come to a place where we can co-parent fairly civilly and calmly, but the friendship is not there. It's gone. And I know that's because of me and I own that because I am not in a place where I can do that yet. There's still healing that I need to do. And I don't know if I'll ever get there, but to tell someone, "Oh, you'll find someone better, please don't." I'll just say that right now. Please don't say that to somebody unless you are 100,000% sure that they are celebrating it themselves. Because like you said, there are situations, sure, absolutely celebrated. But for the most part, it is difficult, and even now it's difficult for the person who ends it. And it's taken me a long time to be able to say that because I carried so much anger and so much frustration and sadness and you carry that grief, right? And it was mostly anger, and that's a feeling I'm not used to feeling. I'm really not used to feeling that and so to feel that, especially towards someone that I was so close with and I had given my heart to in that way, it's taken me a while to say that, but I know it was not an easy decision for him to make. It wasn't, and I know that.Dawn TaylorAnd even just saying that and owning that, right, like. so as a trauma specialist right? Like, I work with people all the time that are walking through divorce. They're wanting to get divorced or dealing with this, and it's never an easy decision, ever, on either side. And it doesn't matter how toxic the relationship is. It doesn't matter how damaging it is. It doesn't mean it's an easy decision. Right?Christina MonaiYeah.Dawn TaylorIt's not an easy decision to get there. So, stay at home mom. And what year was this? What year did this all go down? 2019.Christina MonaiThis was 2019. Yeah. And I had at that point, I was just starting my business that year as well.Dawn TaylorYeah. So you're just starting a business with two small children, which, I mean, obviously is so easy to do. If you did not hear my sarcasm, rewind and hear it again. You already have all that going on, right. You're counting on the support of your spouse, and not just financially, emotionally, with tasks around the house, with caring for the kids, with being the emotional support. Like all of the things right? Like the things we just naturally put on a partner, right? Or the compromise of what we've decided as a couple. But then he kind of peaced out for a while.Christina MonaiYeah, and there's been some debate between the two of us as to what actually occurred during that period. So he feels that I kept the kids from him, and from where I was standing, he did peace out. And so, there are two perspectives there for sure. And obviously the truth is somewhere in the middle. But I was going to say from where I am right, sure. What were you going to say?Dawn TaylorI was going to say there's always, like, three sides to every story. Right. His, hers, and the truth. Exactly. And here's the caveat to that, is what our perspective was and what we lived is actually our truth.Christina MonaiYeah, that is true. The truth that I lived was that he was gone. And it was very difficult for both me and the kids to figure that out, you know, to try and figure out a new normal. And, again, it was part of that. I'm processing the same time as my kids and I'm trying to figure out a new way of being, and there were many times where I would drop the kids off at school and I would get them to school and get them off, get back in the car and the minute I got out of the parking lot, I made sure I had my sunglasses on and I just cried the whole way home because I'd been holding it in all morning and I didn't want the kids to see that. So, there were times where I didn't share my emotions or show my emotions in front of the kids because I knew it was okay to share some of it, but I did not want it to turn into them being in an emotional crutch for mum because I'm definitely not okay with that at all. No. And that was that fine line of trying to figure that out, trying to figure out that balance of what is okay to share and okay, I need to go to somebody else to talk about this. So, I ended up working out a system with the kids where when they would ask me, I would just share what I was feeling. So, "I'm feeling really sad today. My heart is hurting today. I'm having a tough time with being there for you guys." And that, so I tried to keep it very narrow in scope, and I made a very conscious decision to not say anything negative about their dad to them because that is a path I did not want to go down and I did not want to damage their relationship with their dad in any way. As they've gotten older, it's been a little easier to be a little more honest about the situation because they are older, they understand a little more about what's going on, about dynamics between people. So, again, there's that fine line of, I will never say anything negative about their dad to them. I will acknowledge a situation, and I'm sure he does the same. There's been times where I've forgotten to send things or I haven't checked in when I've said, I'm going to check in. So, those things I own. But you acknowledge the reality of the situation. "Oh, yeah, you're right. Mom didn't check in or Dad didn't check in. I'm sure there's a good reason for it and how can I help support you?" was basically how I chose to handle that.Dawn TaylorYou know, what I've often said to people is, your kids will figure out the other parent's true colors. It might be when they're a teenager. It might be when they're an adult. It's not your job to make your kids see that other side.Christina MonaiNo, it's not. And it's gotten a lot better since the divorce. I will say he's become a very good dad, and he was a good dad before to the kids. But over the last few years, he has done some work on himself, which I'm very grateful for, and I'm very glad that he did, from what the kids have told me. And I hear very good things about how the dynamic is between them now, and I'm very glad for that. And it was one of those things where I actually went through some fear of, well, "What if they like being at their dad's better than mine?" And that's where they want to be all the time and I lose my kids. That was a spiral thought pattern that I went down more than once. More than once. And that is a scary thought path to go down, by the way, if you have ever gone down that path. Oh, my goodness. It is scary AF to think that, because in that process, you've lost someone. And it's not the same as losing someone to death, because that person is still in your life, they are still around and especially if you have to be right. If you have to be in a co-parenting situation as well, you have to see this person regularly and I had to go through the experience twice over of him having a new partner and that was incredibly difficult to go through, and to go through that within six months after the divorce happened, the separation happened. Just really, it really affected my self-worth. And I'm sad to say that now, because your worth shouldn't be dependent on someone else, and I know that now, but at the time, oh, my goodness, there were so many thoughts of "Why was I not good enough? Why wasn't I good enough? Why wasn't I worth fighting for? Why wasn't our marriage worth fighting for?" Right? And all those thoughts just play around in your brain, and there's nobody there to tell you otherwise unless you reach out to someone. Right? And so that felt isolating sometimes. Very isolating,Dawn TaylorAbsolutely. So everything feels like it's falling apart. Everything is chaotic. What was one of your big first steps to build yourself back up again?Christina MonaiI reached out to family and friends. That was the biggest thing, was recognizing, I don't know where the thought came from, but immediately in my brain, it was, "I need to talk to this person. I need to talk to this person. I need to talk to this person." And a few of the people were mums who had gone through divorce and who had gone through separation. And I immediately started reaching out to those who I knew, and it occurred to me at the time that I didn't know very many single moms. The majority of my group of friends were married and that felt very isolating and I'm thinking, "I don't know what I'm going do here, because I don't feel like there's much solidarity or understanding of what I'm going through." But I will say for the people that I did have in my life at the time and some who are still in my life, the best way I can describe it is that I felt like I was alone by myself in the middle of the ocean. This giant, black, unforgiving ocean. And all of a sudden, this life raft just came up from underneath me and just picked me up and just held me and it was all the people that I was friends with, family with, all of it. My soccer team at the time, they kept me up. Like, everybody. Everybody came in. And that's the best way I can describe how that felt was just this appeared up out of the water and just gently held me up while I figured things out.Dawn TaylorDo you think that that's one of the struggles in our, just even in our society in general right now, is we often think we're the only one going through what we're going through, right? But there's also the ego piece of it where there's shame attached to it, where we don't want to actually admit that we could be hurting or that something went wrong or that we're struggling or any of those things. So, we don't ever ask for help. When, really, we are surrounded by people that would be more than willing. Right? And you didn't say that one person was your life raft. It was a group of people that all were a small piece of that life raft that all banded together, that lifted you up out of the water, right? Do you think that that's where our ego, our ego, our pride, whatever we want to cry gets involved, and then that's what ends up really biting us in the ass? Because it's like, "No, I actually need support and need help right now, and I don't know how to ask for it. But I also don't want to admit that maybe something is wrong."Christina MonaiI 100% agree. I think that's one of the very big stigmas of divorce still. It was a very big stigma when our parents’ generation even more so, the generation before, it's a little more, I don't want to say accepted, now. It's not a surprise now. And maybe that's just because I'm in that world.Dawn TaylorNo, it's actually just not a surprise. Incredibly, sadly common.Christina MonaiYeah, it is becoming more common, which maybe isn't a bad thing. I know that may be controversial to say, but I think there's more of an understanding that it's not okay to remain in unhealthy relationships. There's something to be said for this is really not working, and it is hurting you, it is hurting me. And maybe this needs to be something that we need to let go, because it is unhealthy. And, I think that is where my ex-husband was, where his thinking was and in a small way, I'm grateful to him for that because I think of where I am now and where I was when I was married. If I was still married, I would still be dying slowly. And I recognize that now. I was dying slowly in that marriage, and I'm pretty sure he was too, you know? So, in order to be able to be healthy and to be whole. Maybe it's not a bad thing and that's probably super controversial, and I know there's probably people who don't agree with it, and I am very much one of those people who is when you're in a relationship, when you're in a marriage, you stand and you fight for that like there is no tomorrow and you don't put down your sword. However, I've been through the situation where, you know what, I should have put down the sword. But hindsight's 20-20, right? It's always 20-20. You look back, you're like, "Well, maybe if I did this differently" or "Maybe I did that differently." But then you can't know how things would have turned out anyways, right? So with this perception that society has around asking for help, I think there's still very much a stigma around that.Dawn TaylorSo funny. But you know what? That's why it's one of the reasons why I'm even doing this podcast, right, is to try to break some of the stigma in a lot of these things.It's really easy to judge from your high horse. It's very different when you're in the middle of the situation. And I think that judgment comes from fear. Judgment always comes from fear. Right? And I think to hear someone whose world was completely rocked and it wasn't expected, it wasn't something that was there, right? There was never a thought in your mind, really, that it was going to end in divorce and to have your entire world rock like that, where it's like, "No. Now I have to figure out how to mom on my own, and I have to figure out how to build a business and take care of myself and pay my bills and do all of these things." Right? That you're okay. And that looking back, you can actually maybe it wasn't the end of the world, right?Christina MonaiIt wasn't. It was the end of that world. It was the end of that chapter. It was the end of that Christina, right. So, that chapter needed to happen, and the two best things that came out of that were my kids. My son and my daughter, and I would go through all of that hellfire again just to have them. I would walk through that fire again. And I think that's the truth for any single parent and any parent in general, right? And even those who don't have kids. There's people in your life that you would walk through fire for. So it's not necessarily limited to parents per se, right? Because you could be going through a divorce and not have kids, and it could still be just as painful and just as earth-shattering as mine was, and it's not limited to being a parent, but being able to ask for help. That's where the real strength is, in my opinion. That's stronger than trying to do it all by yourself? Being able to say, "Hey, I'm struggling. I need some help." That's one of the strongest things that you can do. That took me a long time to do and that was actually the same friend who told me it was okay to show my emotions in front of my kids. She's also the one who said, "If someone offers help, say yes." Doesn't matter if you want to say yes. It doesn't matter if you feel like saying yes. Say yes. Accept the help, and that piece of advice right there was the second those two pieces of advice were the best thing that I could have heard when I was going through my divorce. It's okay to show your emotions, whether to your kids or to other people, and accept help and ask for help.Dawn TaylorWhich is so true. Vulnerability is the strongest state.Christina MonaiYeah. And I wonder if there's something to be said for how society perceives vulnerability like that. Like you said, the asking for help, that's a vulnerability and I think that's still seen as weakness for a lot of people. Yeah, I don't think so much for mums, and I actually have a podcast of my own where we talked about single parents, and I am a single mom, and there's lots of stuff for single mom's programs and things like that, and single dads don't have that same community that single moms do and that was actually something I learned.Dawn TaylorI have an episode coming up really soon, and that's what I'm talking with single dad about. The lack of community.Christina MonaiYeah, 100%. And that made me sad finding that out and I never would have known that had I not gone through what I did. Because I can bet you I would not be looking into the, I don't want to say, plight. That sounds very dramatic and hyperbolic.Dawn TaylorI love it.Christina MonaiThe plight of single parents, right? Single mom, single dad, what's the difference? But because one of the major sources of support for me, aside from my friends and family, was a single mom organization, and I would love to give them a shout out. It's Kaleo Collective. So they operate out of St. Albert and I met the founder. I actually met her at a networking event the year within months after my divorce. And that was a turning point for me, was recognizing I am not alone. That was the biggest thing that helped me get through and honestly, I don't know where I'd be if I hadn't met her, because that organization helped me so much and the biggest thing was knowing I wasn't alone. That was the biggest thing. They offer so many good resources and supports and things like that for single moms. The founder was a single mom for the longest time. And I've met one of my best friends, two of my best friends, and actually the co-host of the podcast I'm on. We're both single moms. That's where we met. Was there so much good came from that? So, I never would have been on this journey and I wouldn't be where I am now if those things had not happened.Dawn TaylorIsn't that it's so interesting, right? Like, how I feel like this is a common theme that's been coming through a lot of podcasts that I've been recording over the last little bit of conversations people are having with me on actually opening up, letting people in, right? I had this beautiful moment. So when I was dealing with some health stuff a couple of years ago and I was doing medical treatments and I was there five days a week and IV therapies and all these things, and it was just insanity. And I was so sick and weak and tired and I didn't know how I was going to cope or how I was going to survive. And at one point, one of my least touchy feely male friends, not an emotional dude at all, called me. And I had just had 8 hours of IVs. I have massive needle trauma. So he knew that it was a really hard week. I was like two weeks into this. I was almost ready to go home again. And he phoned me and he's like, "Where are you?" And nobody even knew I was doing treatments, really, at that point. I was talking about on my social media, but very lightly, right? People didn't know to the level unless they were in my inner circle, really. And I said, oh. I said, "I'm just driving home from the doctor's office." And he's like, "Come over." And I was like, "What?" He's like, "Come over. You're going to lay on my couch. I'm going to cuddle you in with a blanket. You can cuddle my baby if you need to. And then I'm going to order you dinner. And you're just going to lay there and just be with people for a little bit." He's like, "And if you need me to, I'll drive you home after." And, you know, it was like this moment where I was like, "Thank you." And I could have said no. I could have thought him on it. I could have been like, "No, it's fine. I'll just go back to the hotel in order to skip the dishes or whatever I was going to do." And those moments where it's like, no, you need someone right now. You need people right now. You need to engage in community right now.Christina MonaiYes.Dawn TaylorAnd it was so safe. And this is one thing I want to attach to everything that you and I have been talking about today, is make sure your people are safe.Christina MonaiYes.Dawn TaylorEverybody in your world is safe. Not everybody is going to be safe to talk about divorce with. Not everyone's going to be safe to give your emotions to or to feel

Tim Bartsch is a devout Christian, proud family man and talented music teacher. Today at the Taylor Way Talks, he brings forth a tragic experience in his life involving the loss of his child and how it’s seen from a father’s perspective. He talks about the pain of loss, the complexity of grief, and how even in the face of tragedy, the worst possible moment in his life turned into something that led him closer to both God and members of his family. Content WarningIn this episode, we discuss some topics that listeners may find difficult such as the loss of a child.Why you would want to listen to this episode…Tim Bartsch is a devout Christian, proud family man and talented music teacher. Today at the Taylor Way Talks, he brings forth a tragic experience in his life involving the loss of his child and how it’s seen from a father’s perspective. He talks about the pain of loss, the complexity of grief, and how even in the face of tragedy, the worst possible moment in his life turned into something that led him closer to both God and members of his family. Who this for For those who have struggled with the loss of a loved one, going through the stages of grief coming to terms with this loss can be a very difficult time. This episode is for those who wish to know more about the process of grief, as well as for those who would like to hear more about the father’s perspective when it comes to dealing with tragedy, and how it paves the way for beautiful, courageous and triumphant things to be experienced late in life.About Dawn TaylorDawn Taylor is the professional ass-kicker, hope giver, life strategist, trauma specialist, and all-around badass. Dawn's journey into helping others heal began when she took her personal recovery from the trauma she experienced in her life into her own hands. While at times unconventional, Dawn’s strategic methods have helped hundreds heal from traumas such as issues related to infidelity,  overcoming addiction,  working through PTSD from sexual, emotional, and physical abuse, as well as helping cult survivors thrive. Dawn’s work has empowered entrepreneurs, stay-at-home moms, and CEOs alike to be superheroes in their own lives. Having completed thousands of hours of training from many professional programs, including the Robbins Madanes Training Institute, Dawn’s blunt honesty will challenge your thinking, broaden your awareness, and help you achieve the outstanding results you are worthy of.Connect with Dawn here at The Taylor Way: Consultation Call | Website | Facebook | Instagram | LinkedInGet to know Dawn on a deeper level through her book! Order HereP.S. I Made It, is a powerful story that grabs you through its lack of pretension and honesty. Every page reveals another layer of curious wonder at both Dawn’s life and the power of hope that moves within each of us. Dawn’s hope is that you use this book as a resource to deal with your struggles. Share it with someone who needs it. We all want to feel like someone understands what it’s like to suffer through something and – come out the other side. She describes her life as “horrifically beautiful and beautifully horrific. Guest BioTim grew up in a quiet town in the BC interior. He spent a lot of time with family, playing music, and spending time outdoors. Fast forward a few decades and Tim lives in Calgary with his wife, son, and daughter, and wouldn't you know, he enjoys spending time with his family, playing music, and being outdoors. Thanks for listening!Thanks so much for listening to our podcast! If you enjoyed this episode and think that others could benefit from listening, please share it using the social media buttons on this page. Do you have some feedback or questions about this episode? Leave a comment in the section below!Follow the podcastIf you want to receive new podcast episodes automatically, you can follow us on Apple Podcasts or in your favourite podcast app.Please leave us an Apple Podcasts reviewRatings and reviews from our listeners are extremely valuable to us and greatly appreciated. They help our podcast rank higher on Apple Podcasts, which exposes our show to more awesome listeners like you. If you have a minute, please leave an honest review.Views Expressed, Legal and Medical DisclaimerThis podcast (including any/all site pages, blog posts, blog comments, forums, videos, audio recordings, etc.) is not intended to replace the services of a physician, nor does it constitute a doctor-patient relationship. Information is provided for informational purposes only and is not a substitute for professional medical advice. You should not use the information on this podcast for diagnosing or treating a medical or health condition. If you have or suspect you have an urgent medical problem, promptly contact your professional healthcare provider. Any application of the recommendations in this podcast/website is at the listener/reader's discretion. The views and opinions expressed are those of guests and do not necessarily reflect the opinion or policy of Dawn Taylor, The Taylor Way and or its Associates. The before mentioned are not liable for any direct or indirect claim, loss or Enter your transcript here... Transcript Dawn TaylorI am your host, Dawn Taylor, and today we're talking to the amazing Tim Barch. Today's topic is a deep one. So here is the trigger warning for all of you yet I challenge you to listen to it no matter what, because a lot of people around here are dealing with this. And yeah, I promise you'll get through it. But, today's topic is the death of a child from a dad's perspective. Before we get started, I do want to tell you a little bit about our guest so you can be as excited as I am today, but also know how to support him. So, my guest is my cousin Tim. My cousin. Oh, man, as a kid, worshipped the ground this kid walked on. This guy walked on. He has always been one of my absolute favorite relatives, my favorite family members. And I'm honored to say that we have maintained a friendship and a relationship into our elderly years. No, I say it's like we're so old, but we have. He is a worship pastor, he's a dad, he's a husband, he's an incredible musician. He's all the things. He also has a heart for helping other parents. So I just want to say welcome to the show, Tim.Tim BartschThanks a lot. I appreciate it.Dawn TaylorSo, we talked about this a while ago. You had asked, you're like, "I think I want to tell my daughter's story." And I was like, "Yes, we need to do this." So I'm going to let you take this where you want this to go. So let's start at the beginning. Tell us about Amelia. Tim BartschSure. Well, just newly married and, um, my wife found out she's pregnant, and it's exciting. And two months in, baby's growing. This is great. My wife was on some blood pressure medication. No big deal, so the doctor said. And then a couple of months keep going or roll on, and we hit the 26-week point and we're seeing the specialist. And I was there. I happened to be there with my wife that day. Her name is Janine and the doctor said, "Your baby has to come out now." And we were like, "Okay, it's getting real." So, I go home to grab some stuff. They scheduled a C-section for 06:00 a.m. the next morning, and this was like three, four in the afternoon. And, anyway, I don't even know if they told us 06:00 a.m., but it was something like that. And then I drive over that morning. I wasn't even allowed in there. They had a glass window where I could see people running around with the kid. Wow. I guess I should say they injected some steroids into Janine's for the baby because at that age, it increases the chances of survival. But, also we had the stat that at 26 weeks, viability of a child is between 70 and 80%. So nearly every child lives anyway. So we're like, "Cool. All right, we're good." Dawn TaylorBaby's coming early, but we're okay. Tim BartschYeah. And we knew it would be months in the NICU and w weren't sure what that would look like. But you deal with it, right? Because it's your kid. So anyway, I got there in the morning, put on the robe thing and all that stuff. Got to see Janine after the operation and just kind of sat there. Right. And you get to stay in the neonate intensive care unit, well, actually, you don't get to. The child does, but we had a space, and we're just kind of moving on, dealing with things. In-laws are in town buying stuff. We're going out for dinner. Just figuring moving on. Right? Dawn TaylorRegular day. Tim BartschYeah. And day two rolls around. I think I got in on like, day one and a half, give or take. Sometime on the second day, whatever. And she's little. You could put my wife's wedding ring and she's a size four on her finger. You could put that around Amelia's wrist. Dawn TaylorWow. Tim BartschSo, she was less she was just around a pound. Just over a pound. And then, of course, there are other parts of the story, but leading up to day two, a nurse comes in and she had a different face on. She said "It doesn't look good. We don't know what's wrong." And she was presenting like an infection. Her skin was getting redder, looking sick. And then I went in again, and I think that's when Janine and I finally went into, because she was having a cesarean. You can't move. You're in a wheelchair. You're cut open. You got stitches inside you and outside you. And it's really not - you sit up and you faint. It's not easy, and I didn't get the cesarean, obviously. So you'd have to ask Janine how much worse it was than I'm describing. But, we go in and we get to look at her and stuff. And at that point, they said "it doesn't look good, we'll see." Doesn't look good. And, kind of looking at her, I think, you know what? I might be remembering some of this wrong, but I think that was when we did a video call with my brother-in-law, who was in Thailand at the time, and he was the only one who saw Amelia alive apart from Janine and myself. Dawn TaylorWow. Tim BartschSo it's kind of cool, kind of sad because the older siblings didn't get a chance. But anyway, at that point, it may have actually been then maybe a second visit we had. And they said, we don't know. She's getting worse. And essentially, then now you have a choice to make. We can treat her with something, and it might help, but it will burn inside her body. Or, you can let her go, and either way, she may die. Well, obviously pull the plug. She's going to die. But anyway, we were just like, "No, we're not going to burn our daughter." Dawn TaylorOkay, so pause there for a second. Tim BartschSure. Dawn TaylorSo, as a parent, you've been told, and this is literally over a matter of days, you've been told, like, 70% to 80% chance of survival. So you're, like, plan in the future and how this is going to look, and probably like, "Oh, I'm going to need more time off work." Spend a lot of time in NICU. That's one complete thought process to oh, hey, here's two of the most horrific decisions in the world. Oh, and by the way, you have to choose one. Tim Bartsch Yeah. You can torture your kid and she might die, or you can pull the plug and she's going to die, Like, pain or death.Dawn TaylorLike, but that is the most brutal decision.Tim BartschYeah, it was harsh, you know? You know, in the in the middle of it, too. It's like, "Well, if I pull the plug, am I killing my daughter?" That question you ask and and, you know, growing up in a family that is devout, you know, church-going folks, it's like, "What are the theological ramifications of pulling the plug?" But really, though, that's when the rubber actually hits the road. It's kind of like asking, what would you do if you were, like, whatever conviction you hold? What would you do if it was challenged at the most fundamental level? And I'm like, "Well, I can't tell you that because I haven't been there, and even how can you ask that question?" You don't know. You can never know until you're there. Dawn TaylorYou don't know until tell you're in the middle of it. Tim BartschYeah. Even when you've made up my mind. Even when you've made up your mind. Good luck, buddy. So, anyway, all that to say, it didn't take long for us to realize that we had to let her go. And it was kind of cool, but one of the nurses who was in there who was caring for us, she just said, "Thank you." Something like that. "What a brave choice you've made." Wow. Because this nurse, I'm sure, has walked with many parents who are like, "Keep the child alive." And you're like, "Yeah, but, like, for who? How are you the best parent?" And I'm like, "Oh, man, I got to let her go, and I really don't want to, and I got to let her go." So, we did, and we got to be there when they they pulled out the breathing tube, and it was kind of cool. It was like, whatever it was, she lifted up her hand and then it fell and then she died. And it was beautiful. Dawn TaylorYeah. How many days was that? Tim BartschHer birthday is the 4th of September and she was gone on the 7th, 2013. Dawn TaylorJust a few precious days on this earth.Tim BartschYeah. Dawn TaylorLet's talk about this from a dad's perspective.Tim BartschSure.Dawn TaylorSo, from a mum's perspective, right. Your body has all the hormonal changes going on. You've just given birth. You've also bonded in a completely different way to this child for those 26 weeks. Right? It's so different. But let's talk about it from a dad's perspective. How is that for you? Tim BartschWell, you know, yeah. You're sitting there and the mom is crying and crying and crying and crying and I have tears too, of course, but I know I can't feel any of that stuff. I wasn't cut open, the baby didn't get pulled out of me, and I'm thankful to have been able to be in the room when they did a Caesarean on our child Eiley, who's now seven. And it was awesome. That can be another podcast, a C-section from a dad's perspective. But having her, the months and months, it wasn't not just the day after, but the time after, watching her grieve just shredded me. And, yeah.Dawn TaylorWe talked earlier, we're both crying. Get us being hot messes. This is a tough one. Was it also from a man's perspective of needing to be the rock and needing to be the support and needing to be the strong person? At any point in there did you feel almost forgotten? Tim BartschIt's a good question. It's interesting. So maybe we can come back to this one. How, when you're grieving, people are usually there for you for a couple days, maybe even a week. And then nothing happened because there's a hockey game or there's, your family members have kids who have sports or whatever. People got to go home because they got jobs. But in that time, I felt bad because I wanted to be able to identify more, I think, with what Janine was going through. But I also recognized that I had grief as well. And I needed to be able, I had to visit whatever place I had to go as I grieved. Otherwise, I would carry it with me. So, to answer your question, actually, about being left out. Yes, of course. I did a little bit. Because it's the baby of the mother. Dawn TaylorOh, interesting wording, but yeah. Makes sense. Tim BartschBut at the same time, I know that's not the case. I was fortunate to have people that I could talk to, including, we had a therapist that we that Janine and I visited, so good. And honestly, I mean, I gotta put it out there that not just my family is devout. I'm a firm believer that God is with me. All the time, and the comfort that, you know, I suppose people of any faith can identify with this, but let me say that Jesus Christ is Lord, and He walked us through it, and you can't do it without Him, so forget it. And I know that comes across as bigoted, even from some people's perspective, and so be it. Let's talk, because I'm not here to talk about what I am against. I have so much thanks for, you would say, strength when you shouldn't have it. Dawn TaylorThat right there.Tim BartschThere's enough understanding to make it for the next ten minutes. You don't have to have a whole day. You don't have to make it through the day. Take a deep breath and you'll make it through the next couple of seconds. And then you get to take another breath.Dawn TaylorYou know, I think I said this before on the podcast, but I remember when our grandpa got cancer and he wasn't doing well. And, Grandma had talked to me often because of having a husband who had almost died so many times and having dealt with so many health issues myself. We'd have these weird little, like, back hallway of their house conversations, the exact spot by the bathroom and the waiter where we stand. And she'd like, whisper questions to me about how I had dealt with it and how I'd coped with it. And at one point, I said to her, I was like, "Grandma, some days you're like, 'I'm killing it one day at a time. I can make it one whole day.'" And I said, "Sometimes you're like, 'no, I might make it to lunch.'" And I said, "But Grandma, there's literally times where you count to 60, take a deep breath, grateful you survived, and then you start again right back back at one, because you're like, 'okay, I think I can make 60 more seconds.'" And at Grandpa's funeral, she came over and gave me a hug and just started counting quietly in my ear. And I just laughed and just hugged her. I was like, "There we go, Grandma."Tim BartschYeah. Someone said it might have even been some famous author said what saves a man is to take a step and then another. For all the dads out there, it's like, obviously you can't feel those feelings, but who are you? You're right there. Okay? If you're with the mother her, you're beside her. And if you're not, you just lost a kid and feel the feelings, you have to talk to someone. And even if you if you can talk to somebody who's gone through it, because that was one of the best things was as soon as I shared about the death of Amelia, I had Moms and Dads coming out of the woodwork saying, "We had the same thing happen to us." And I was like. "Okay. I got a bunch of friends." And it's like an instant fundamental connection you make with people you've never met. In one case, it was the grandmother of one of my music students, and she just very quietly said named her child that she lost and says he would have been 27 today or something, or he would have been 27 years old or something like that. It was just like, "Wow." That's why we got to talk about it. Because I live in Calgary, so there was a particular Calgary Flames player. Oh, no, and I'm going to forget his name on the air. That's awesome. I'll remember it in about 45 minutes. But they lost a child right around the same time. And I was like, "Man, I got to talk to him." But it was so interesting. I knew what he was going through. And I'm like, "dude, I got your back. You don't know me, and I'll never see you again or see you ever. But I got your back. Bye." Dawn TaylorInteresting club that you're part of that you don't want to be part of.Tim BartschYeah. Dawn TaylorWelcome to the club that I wish you weren't in. Tim BartschAnd what if we could just share that grief, though, man? What kind of idiots are we when we build a silo around us because we're going through this trouble? There's all kinds of reasons, but you got to open it up.Dawn TaylorBut you do. So moving forward after I remember going to her funeral.Tim BartschYeah.Dawn TaylorAnd it was so brutal, but so beautiful. Tim BartschI wrote a piece of music. It was between the day of her death and the day of the funeral. I had it handwritten. Oh, wait. Yeah, I did. And it took me about a day. Who knows? But, still got the piece of music.Dawn TaylorIt's amazing, right? I mean, no child funeral, no funeral is good, but you know, when you're like at a grandparents' funeral, you're like, "They lived a good life, we'll miss them and it's devastating." But you're good. But a child, you're like, "They didn't even get a chance. I know this come across no, I know this is going to come across as I don't know what, so just bear with me. But do you feel like it wasn't taken as serious because she was premature and one pound versus has she passed away at full term or at a later date?Tim BartschNo, it's funny. I know. It's like, how do you write a three day obituary? "She lived three days, she died." Here we are with the gallous humor. I love it.Dawn TaylorThe dark sense of humor. Our family is known for this. Yeah, we are.Tim BartschYeah. Not really, because people yeah, the only thing that sometimes creeps in is when people are meaning well and down years later. Oh, well, you had another child, so I guess it's okay, periodically. But most people aren't that stupid anymore. Stupid might be the wrong word, maybe. Dawn TaylorNo, we're using it. It's okay.Tim BartschIt's like you should know better when someone's grieving. So all you folks out there who have friends who are going through grief, just sit with them. Dawn TaylorOkay, I want you to define that because people don't actually understand what that actually means. Tim BartonIsn't there an acronym - STFU? It means don't talk. It's interesting. I told a guy who lost he was friends, very good friends with a man who lost his wife suddenly wife of like 40 years or something like this just this past fall. And I just said if I could give you one word of advice and I don't mean to give you advice, but don't say anything. Just sit with them. No. And if you talk, just talk about stuff. And stuff means not related to anything that they're going through because they'll bring it up on their terms, and then you get to walk with them because you might not be the person they need to tell about how they're really feeling, but your presence with them shows them, and maybe they will share. I didn't have many like that, except I had people who asked me, "How can I help?" And I just said, "Just be around." And they were, fortunately not those types who say, "Oh, you got to stay strong, or it's so great how you're handling this." I'm like, "You don't know."Dawn TaylorYou have no idea what's going on.Tim BartschAnd it wasn't in a mean way. It's like, I don't know, you idiot. It's more like my kid just died. It sucks. Come on, for real. Just hang out. We're okay. Maybe you could go get me some broccoli or something because I need to make a stir fry. Dawn TaylorYeah. Tim BartschAnyway, we actually felt really supported by a lot of people, just such a wide variety of folks. They even brought food, even though my wife is a Celiac. So, unfortunately, if you're reading this or hearing this and you brought food, we didn't really eat it because my wife couldn't eat anything you brought. So I love the intention, and the care. Yeah. So that's all right. But that's another fun story. The third podcast.Dawn TaylorRight? It's so true. So moving through that grief now, let's talk about a couple of years later. Janine's pregnant again. Tim BartschMm-hmm. You know what? Can I back up just a little bit? Yeah, we'll come back to that one for sure shortly. Let's see here. Was it even a year? It wasn't. February. Dawn TaylorI know where you're going. And I was like, "I'm going to let you bring this up if you want to. I'm not going to go there."Tim BartschYeah, I think it's pretty cool because I referred to my faith, and I'm not saying everything happens for a reason. That's a really stupid thing to say, I think. But, every circumstance in your life can be redeemed, can be turned into an opportunity to bring healing and wholeness to yourself and to others. And, shortly after the death of my daughter, my brother's wife had a child who lived for nine days, and then she died from something. Later, they discovered that there was no way she was getting out of that one either. And I could walk with him and oh, man, talk about the best thing that could have happened out of the worst thing that happened, and we have that bond that gets irreplaceable, and you can't break that. And so we walked through it, and we still periodically just kind of were the two dads who lost kids. Yeah, just look back. Look back at it and, yeah, it's pretty cool. How do you say it's pretty cool? But I think anybody who's gone through anything terrible who has let themselves experience the healing that you can experienceDawn TaylorOkay, say that again.Tim BartschSo anyone who is willing to-Dawn TaylorAnyone who's gone through a horrible experience-Tim Bartsch- who has let themselves be healed from it, it takes time. Who has let themselves be healed from it, can turn that terror into something life-changing for yourself and also for people around you, because it changes, well, I know enough that it changes your biology, not just your thinking, but actually physically changes you. But it also, well, it changed a lot of things for me, but anyway, it allows you to become, to be an agent of healing for others, at least to give them the choice to make steps toward it. You can't heal anyone. You can point them in the direction you can nudge, and you can be a powerful ally and, yeah, just try it.Dawn TaylorSeriously. So you said it changed a lot for you, and then we're going to get back to the other question, but what did it all change for you? Tim BartschWell, I've been a music teacher since I was 15, and I'm 47, so do the math.Dawn TaylorSo like four or five years? Tim BartschYeah, give or take.Dawn TaylorI'm that old, by the way.Tim BartschI don't know. I'm ageless, tell you. Dawn TaylorYou are ageless. So, it changed how I treat people, and it changed suddenly, I've always liked kids. I have a lot of fun being a music teacher, among other things that I do. But now they were someone's kid. It wasn't just these kids, it was that parent's child. Whether they have a good relationship with that kid or not, that person's treasure. And, so I'm not just teaching a kid music. It was so interesting. I heard myself say the words. It's like, "I'm not just teaching these children music. I'm helping them to become just good people." And it changes the level of patience you have. It changes how you how you show, like, it's, I guess, discipline. Or, like, how you treat kids who are misbehaving. You still have to call them on it and you have to provide discipline. But, the words you use and the actions you take change or it caused me to change and certainly reconsider the well-worn pathways, the habits of either you've seen it done this way or it was done this way to you, or you think it's a good idea, whatever it is. Now, something in your life has changed or challenged how you think. Yeah. And it did, and I'm so glad. That was one of the first things I noticed, actually, because-Dawn TaylorBig fundamental changes.Tim BartschI had one week off and I was back to teaching. Imagine that, put your death of your daughter in a little box and go to work. But hey, that's also part of moving on is imagine that life moves on.Dawn TaylorIt's so true. It's so true that it does. So let's backtrack. And that was a crazy year, by the way. That was suchan  interesting, from when my mom passed away to your daughter, to your brother's daughter. It just felt like it was just like compiled death. It was just wild in our family. It was a very heavy, heavy time for, I mean, mostly you guys, but for everyone, right? Like it was just not okay. Tim BartschYeah.Dawn TaylorSo now let's go to a couple of years later, Janine gets pregnant again.Tim BartschWell, it's funny because on one level, of course you're worried about, well, is it going to happen again? Yeah, of course you're going to worry about that. If any trauma you've ever had, if it happened in a place, every time you pass that place.Dawn Taylor100%. .Tim BartschEvery time I drive by the hospital, I don't often, but I would have work up there and I'm like, oh yeah, I was up on the 10th floor or whatever. And I remember walking the twelve flights of stairs, running up the stairs to the, to where Janine was, because the elevators I was like, I'm not going to get in the elevator any faster. So, interestingly enough. So the specialists who said she's got to come out now gave Janine her personal phone number,, and she was a nephrologist by trade. So it's a kidney, folks. Kidney doctor who happens to be a celiac, I think, or has Crohn's or something like that. And so immediately, they had that connection. They knew that some of that, there are tendencies. Well, if you have I guess I didn't say the high blood pressure was preeclampsia in my wife. And so knowing that now we had a whole pile of doctors that were like, we're bringing this one in. Dawn TaylorYou're treated very different.Tim BartschOh, yeah. And all that to say to the doctor who didn't know the first time, I have not - like, you know, I can imagine where people would go with that, because it's a she was a relatively new doctor, and I actually told somebody last night. It's like, "I hope if if she ever thinks about it or even heard that we lost this girl, I hope she now knows that the importance of knowing someone's history, just medical history, a lesson learned." I can't blame her. I don't know if you were headed that way.Dawn TaylorNo, but sadly, doctors are humans, too. Tim BartschIf only they could know everything about us. Right? Dawn TaylorRight. Tim BartschSo, anyway, like you were saying, we had a pile of specialists, but it is stressful. 1.6s And of course, she was a little bit early, but not really. And I got to watch the C section. Like I said, that's a whole other podcast. Some people are like, "Oh, that's so disgusting. I was like, this is awesome." And the nurse is like, "You have to stand behind this curtain, and you cannot get out of your seat." I was like, "You're kidding me." Dawn Taylor"Watch me." Tim BartschWell, I did stand up at one point, and that's where I'll leave it. But if anyone wants to know, it was pretty great. Yes. Anyway, so she was born and she was fine, and she's a wild seven year old full of beans, and I'd have it no other way.Dawn TaylorDid it take you? So you have two older kids as well. I mean, both of them are graduated now.Tim BartschYes, my son graduated this yearDawn TaylorWild, right? So. Did you knowing how you bonded with your first two amazing kids, then you have number three, and you deal with the death of this child, and now you have number four. Was it a different bonding experience? Did it take longer to connect? Was there any of that stuff with it?Tim BartschNo, not really. I don't think so. It was it it was being a lot older, having a little kid. Dawn TaylorYeah. Tim BartschSo the age difference, maybe that means we have less energy, but honestly, I don't know. I think when you need something, unless there's something else wrong, your body can provide it. At some fundamental level, you have enough. 1And I remember walking, I'll stand up here a little bit, walking through the hall with my elbows out, because she was long enough or short enough to fit in between, especially the late nights. And that way, when I bumped into the wall, because I did, it wouldn't be her head hitting the wall and stuff. And I think I think parents can identify with that, parents of any age. But no, there's no difference bonding. And what was awesome was particularly my son, he's been., because my daughter's now out of the house, too, so she was a little older, of course, but he really bonded a lot with her, with the, Eilee is her name. And they have a pretty special relationship, and we've yeah, I appreciate that. Dawn TaylorThat's awesome. So what is it you do to remember her? What are some things that you guys have done, incorporated into your family to remember her?Tim BartschWell, we've had birthday parties every year where we'll make a cake. That's one thing we do, that's good to remember. I think it's important to recognize that different people need different things for anyone who has experienced the loss. Don't think about what other people will think about how you remember. You know, you can let time make that choice for you in terms of how you respond to your own grief. People don't need to tell you how to grieve. For us, we have the birthday party that we do, and I think, yeah, usually it's like some little cake or something. Anyway, the first few years we went on little bit of a time away, maybe a dinner out, stuff like that, too. Just Janine and myself, but that's about it. However, we had Amelia cremated, and we have a little urn that sat in the same spot right beside her little the hospital put together, like, a box thing and a little shadow box frame with a picture of her and her little footprints and some cute stuff. So there's a little section on the dresser. Every now and then, I'll just go to that little urn and I'll put my finger on it and just talk to her a little bit. Dawn TaylorIt's awesome. Tim BartschYeah.Dawn TaylorI love what you said about how it's not the same. It's not the same for anyone. Grief is the same for anyone, and how they deal with it, how they process it, what they need to do after. I know for myself, I looked at so, for example, when my mom died. I looked at, okay, what was a character trait of her that I want incorporate into my life and make more of a focus in my life? And I did that also with Grandma, Grandpa, and things like that. That's one of the ways I've grieved. Right. But I don't have photos of them up anywhere, right? Yeah. And I have little things around my house that make me think of them. Like I have grandpa's fingers. I don't know if you've ever known this, but this finger is Grandpa's finger. My pointer finger is literally Grandpa's finger. The same twist, the same curve. And every time I look down, I'm like, freaking ugly finger. Reminds me of Grandpa, right?. And I remember being a little girl, comparing fingers with Grandpa, and I always laugh. I'm like, Man, I should tell the rest of the family that one day, like, if you ever miss Grandpa, just look at my finger. It'll catch you off guard. It's funny.Tim BartschYou know that volcanic glass that sat on top of Grandpa grandma's piano? Yeah. I've got a piece of that. Dawn TaylorOh, so cool. Tim BartschI won't trade that for, like, a million bucks. It's like, I see it and I'm like, There they are. It's pretty cool.Dawn TaylorTotally. Right? And so for me, I go back to my mom's grave often. Like, every time I go through, I go and I stop and I see her and Grandma, Grandpa, and I have a moment, and I bring flowers, and that's something that's very precious to me. But my siblings, like, I think they only go if I go and they happen to come with me. That's just not something that means anything to them or that they need as part of their grief, right?Tim BartschYeah, I know. My brother does graveside visits, too, for his daughter. Yeah, it's true. Some people plant things, some people have little areas of their yard. Dawn TaylorEveryone has a thing. Tim BartschYeah. Dawn TaylorYou know, my challenge to anyone listening to this, this dealing with grief, has or, honestly, we all will at some point in our lives, right? It's like one of the guarantees in life is death, sad to say, but it's true, is find the thing that comforts you and works for you. No matter what anyone else says, no matter what they judge, no matter what their thoughts are on it, or it doesn't matter. It doesn't matter. What is your thing, right? Like, as long as it's not harming you or harming anyone around you. What is that way of remembering?Tim BartschYeah. And I think, too, let time be your ally. And I really don't think that's profound. I guess it can be if you look back and realize but time is one of your allies. Because, then you can feel. You don't have to feel everything on the first day, and you can't and you won't. But, it helps you realize that maybe some of the things you were doing in the middle of the grief at first were toxic, whatever it is, and it could actually have been a good thing you were doing that actually wasn't good for you, necessarily. Dawn TaylorCan you give us an example of that? Tim BartschLet's try. I'll try to see if there's something in even in my own Dawn TaylorSorry, I put you on the spot. Tim BartschYeah, cause I oh, boy. Something so okay, well, I didn't do this. If you, say, pretend I went on a walk every day at a certain time just to remember my daughter. And I did it for a whole year. And then I realized that those walks there's sometimes a varying length, but then there's other people in my life, and a year later I'm realizing, hold on, I have this wife beside me who's grieving too, and. And I can't remember the last time I talked to her about how she's doing, but I've had my me time for a whole year, so it's a very important thing to do. But it's hold on a minute. I need to see if I can find a different way or bring her along on those walks or whatever it is.Dawn TaylorIs this still serving me now in the way it was then?Tim BartschYes. And I think that's that when you're with someone who's grieving, I think they need, so the grieving person needs some time. Just like if you cut yourself, say, the comedy when you cut your neck and it's going, yeah. When you're going through the trauma, that's what's happening. And people kind of got to let you be for a second, but then after a little while, it's okay to jump in and say, "Let's talk about that blood that's leaking out of your neck." Because, if we let it keep going, you might be in some trouble. Dawn TaylorYeah. Tim BartschAnd I think that really does have a

Content Warning: In this episode, we discuss some topics that listeners may find difficult such as parental alienation, narcissism, and gaslighting.Why you would want to listen to this episode…As a complement to episode #28, this episode of the Taylor Way Talks deals with alienation from the child’s perspective, showing that when it comes to alienation, things can go either way. Our anonymous guest has endured life with a narcissistic mother who would always do everything in her power to paint her husband in a bad light. Now an adult, our guest tries to come to terms with the lies she’s discovered and the truth she has now grown to accept in her life, She shares all the ups and downs from her perspective.Who this for For anyone who has experienced or is currently going through parental alienation or living with verbally abusive parents, this episode is a must-listen, since it shows you're not alone and there are ways to get through and eventually leave the situation you're in so that you can discover the truths of your own life that will free you.About Dawn TaylorDawn Taylor is the professional ass-kicker, hope giver, life strategist, trauma specialist, and all-around badass. Dawn's journey into helping others heal began when she took her personal recovery from the trauma she experienced in her life into her own hands. While at times unconventional, Dawn’s strategic methods have helped hundreds heal from traumas such as issues related to infidelity,  overcoming addiction,  working through PTSD from sexual, emotional, and physical abuse, as well as helping cult survivors thrive. Dawn’s work has empowered entrepreneurs, stay-at-home moms, and CEOs alike to be superheroes in their own lives. Having completed thousands of hours of training from many professional programs, including the Robbins Madanes Training Institute, Dawn’s blunt honesty will challenge your thinking, broaden your awareness, and help you achieve the outstanding results you are worthy of.Connect with Dawn here at The Taylor Way: Consultation Call | Website | Facebook | Instagram | LinkedInGet to know Dawn on a deeper level through her book! Order HereP.S. I Made It, is a powerful story that grabs you through its lack of pretension and honesty. Every page reveals another layer of curious wonder at both Dawn’s life and the power of hope that moves within each of us. Dawn’s hope is that you use this book as a resource to deal with your struggles. Share it with someone who needs it. We all want to feel like someone understands what it’s like to suffer through something and – come out the other side. She describes her life as “horrifically beautiful and beautifully horrific. Thanks for listening!Thanks so much for listening to our podcast! If you enjoyed this episode and think that others could benefit from listening, please share it using the social media buttons on this page. Do you have some feedback or questions about this episode? Leave a comment in the section below!Follow the podcastIf you want to receive new podcast episodes automatically, you can follow us on Apple Podcasts or in your favourite podcast app.Please leave us an Apple Podcasts reviewRatings and reviews from our listeners are extremely valuable to us and greatly appreciated. They help our podcast rank higher on Apple Podcasts, which exposes our show to more awesome listeners like you. If you have a minute, please leave an honest review.Views Expressed, Legal and Medical DisclaimerThis podcast (including any/all site pages, blog posts, blog comments, forums, videos, audio recordings, etc.) is not intended to replace the services of a physician, nor does it constitute a doctor-patient relationship. Information is provided for informational purposes only and is not a substitute for professional medical advice. You should not use the information on this podcast for diagnosing or treating a medical or health condition. If you have or suspect you have an urgent medical problem, promptly contact your professional healthcare provider. Any application of the recommendations in this podcast/website is at the listener/reader's discretion. The views and opinions expressed are those of guests and do not necessarily reflect the opinion or policy of Dawn Taylor, The Taylor Way and or its Associates. The before mentioned are not liable for any direct or indirect claim, loss or damage resulting from the use of listening/reading to this podcast or any website and/or any website (s) linked to/from it. Listeners/readers should consult their physicians concerning the recommendations in this podcast.Transcript:Dawn TaylorI am your host, Dawn Taylor, and today we are talking to the amazing floating head number two. So if you listened to our last episode, we had an anonymous guest talking about what it was like to parent with a narcissist and when they practice parental alienation on them. And today, we have this amazing opportunity to see the other side of it. I'm talking about from the child's perspective. So what was it like dealing with parental alienation but from the child? So this child is no longer a child. I can say that much. I'm going to say she's at least 35. She's laughing at me right now, 35 plus a year or two. But, she approached me to talk about this because it's a very interesting topic. And from the other side of it, right, hearing about this from the other side of it and how it was like to deal with it, but also now as an adult, with an elderly parent, where memories are starting to go and now how do you cope? So, we don't have a typical bio. We don't have any of those things. So I'm just going to say welcome to the show. I am so excited you're here today.Anonymous GuestGood morning, Dawn. Thanks for having me.Dawn TaylorOh, I am so excited. This was something when I posted about on my social media that I had done the original interview with the last floating head that, by the way, I love that I call you guys, that, so many people were like, "Oh, my gosh, I need to hear that episode." "Oh. I think that that was me. I think that that's what I'm dealing with. I think I was the child." And so I know that there's people waiting for this episode and just wanting to hear this, and so I just want to thank you so much right off the bat just for even being vulnerable and showing up today.Anonymous GuestHey, I'm here. Let's get on with this. I think I can do it.Dawn TaylorI think you can, too. This is also her very first podcast she's ever done. So, there's some nerves, but we're good. So, let's start at the beginning. Which parent was it that was the narcissist in your home?Anonymous GuestIt was my mom.Dawn TaylorAnd did you know that growing up? Did you know anything about that? It's become a really common word over these last probably five years.Anonymous GuestI don't even know if narcissist was even in a dictionary then when this all happened, because my parents divorced when I was about four, three or four, and I'm the youngest of four siblings and I'm seven years younger than the one next to me. So they're ten, nine and seven years older than I am. So, they got divorced and I didn't understand what was going on. All I saw was we had a happy house. It turned into complete turmoil. And then from there, there was a relationship. I had a relationship with my father, but I always remember when he came, it was like Santa Claus coming. It was all his kids lined up at the front door, you know, big shrubbed cheeks and smiling and happy and just can't wait to get out of the house and see him. And then there was mom, who would do something, whether it was the one time he came, he worked on the pipeline, so he worked out of town and we lived in Edmonton. So, one time he comes and he's got his new spouse, wife, woman with him, whatever she was, and rolls up in a brand new trailer with truck and trailer, of course, because it was the end of the season and he was able to buy whatever he needed and he's coming out of a divorce as well. And, Mom had this sheriff there and we were supposed to go camping. Well, apparently there were some money issues. I don't know what was going on, and the sheriff drove up and said, "Hi, dad, we're taking your truck and trailer right now. Thanks very much. You can deal with it with courts." And they took it, and here we had had plans, we were going camping or going away with him and that was it, and then the argument began and of course all four of us kids are now in tears on the front doorstep because the yelling and the screaming, that's happening and there's no summer vacation and that's the end of it and I don't remember what happened after that. I'm sure we ended up going with my dad for our summer vacation. We probably went and stayed at my grandma's for a while with him and whatnot. But, then he had to deal with that argument but the biggest thing that would happen is because he worked on the pipeline, he would come into town, we would see him Easter, Thanksgiving and summer holiday. And usually with the summary, we would go for the full two months. So there was always this bit of excitement. But there was also an anxiety, because the closer we got to an event, the harder it was to deal with, because Mom would start and it would be "Your father's a bad person." She would say things, negative things, and he's with her. So ,then it gave us the impression that she's sending off to go with a bad person and why would she do this? Then one day, I remember asking her at a very young age, "Why do we have to go?" And she said, "Because the judge said so." And that was it. That was the reason. So then as a kid, you have these very mixed feelings where you're in this loving environment, but then you're sent off to the wolves, and then when you get there, the wolves aren't really wolves. They're just people who want to love you and take care of you and have fun with you. And Dad always had an event for us, whether it was skiing or water skiing or whatever he had going on, he always had an event for us kids to do something with him, and it was great. But. then we had to come back, and we could never say to Mom we had a great time because we were with him. And then she would be, "Well, he's just doing that because..." or something like that. And then she would always take away any joy.Dawn TaylorShe just couldn't let you be happy. Just couldn't let you actually enjoy it. You were super young when they got divorced, but do you remember anything at all about their divorce? What the reason was for it? Was there a lot of fighting? Was it expected? Was it just kind of out of the blue? Anything like that.Anonymous GuestI don't recall any of that. The story is that he was pipelining and he was up in northern BC. One of the other friends had called Mom and said, "You better get up here. He's living with another woman." And apparently mom jumped in the car, packed us kids in, drove us up there, and I'm sure she drove all through the night like a mad demon and banged on the door. And, yes, there was, in fact, a woman in the trailer who was living there, and that was it. Whatever happened after that, I don't know. I don't recall and that was that. The divorce happened, and then this happened in a time when divorce wasn't popular like, this was in the '60s. So, for women to divorce, you had failed. You were no good. There was a lot of negative connotations to being divorced, and both of my grandparents had tried to talk my mom out of it. It'd be easier if you just stayed married. It would be better for the kids but my mom was having none of it, so good for her. She was a bit of a pioneer in that. So, she was standing up for what she thought. But, at the same time, though, what she did is she took her anger out on him, but she kept it in the house with us and let it rot. And of course, it's made a lot of mixed emotions over the years amongst all of us. We all have our own little feelings and things about how we feel about Mom.Dawn TaylorTotally.Anonymous GuestBut, it's interesting because I guess we're all sort of the same, but we're all kind of different, I guess, in our own way, depending on how we perceive our experience.Dawn Taylor It would be very different based on age. Right? Some of your older siblings would have probably seen it more or had the ability to process it different or think about it different or be like, "What? No, that's not that person. What are you talking about?" But for you, you were four. You were a child and at such an impressionable ageAnonymous GuestOh, it was sitting there watching, I probably didn't really understand what was happening. But, seeing the other kids, their reactions, their happiness and then the let down, the constant crying, the disappointment and, I honestly don't think it was anything that my dad did, he went to work. He paid his child support. Now, child support, he was on a pipeline in northern BC. He probably had to open a bank account at the local account to take his checks. And then if they were allowed off early on payday to go into town and deposit their check, were they allowed to take cash out? Did you wire transfer back then? Did you?Dawn TaylorYeah. This was not the era of "I'm going to take a photo of a check on my cell phone and e-transfer somebody."Anonymous GuestExactly, right. So, if the money didn't get there in time, I'm sure she has her stories, too, where she was like, "We went without money and I had to take you kids over to your grandparents to get fed because there was no food in the fridge." And there was those stories as well that had happened, but, hey. But whatever it was, it was right? But nothing was ever her fault. Nothing was ever "Oh, okay, we got to wait two weeks or three weeks for that." It was "He was a bad person, and he did everything to hurt us." And sitting back now, I'm like, she was just such a complainer, and she just wanted whatever the reason was for the divorce, she apparently had no part of it, and none of it was her fault. She never did anything wrong. She was raising kids. She was raising the perfect family. She was a good mother. We were good kids. We were always clean, always, clothes were amended and all that kind of stuff. She was a good mother up until that time. But then from that point on, it was manipulation. And I want to say deceit, but I don't know if that's the right word. But just the pain and the anger that she had, she projected all of that onto us kids in her behavior.Dawn TaylorSo, when did you realize she was a narcissist? That was probably ten years ago. Because I'm the kind of person, if you're good to me, I'm good to you, right? And let's be friends and let's do that. But, when the parent relationship is really, the child-parent relationship is really hard, because the child goes back to the parent for reassurance, for love, for all of those nurturing things that you need to help go on. And as I grew up well, growing up was hell, because there was always the cycle of Dad would phone on Sunday nights. Every Sunday night, he'd phone right around supper time because he knew us kids would be home. The phone was on the in the kitchen, or the phone was on the desk by the table, and that's where you had to sit and talk on the phone. So she heard every word, and she would natter and bitch in the background about whatever it was. "Tell him you need new shoes" and then "You need to send some money for shoes" or whatever it is. And she was always in the background. The two of them would have horrendous fights on the phone. And of course, it was always ended up with hang up and yelling and screaming and, "He's a jerk." and whatever other choice words she used. So we were never allowed to enjoy him and learn who he was because there was always her in the background chirping about it negatively, and it reflected on that. So growing up, there was always that dread for Sunday because you'd get the phone call. And it wasn't that we didn't want to talk to him, it's, we didn't want to deal with her. And she just made it miserable for us to live in the house with her. As soon as my siblings could, they left. They'd all moved out.Dawn TaylorYou were the very last one.Anonymous GuestYeah.Dawn TaylorProbably the worst of it. I think she mellowed out. She started to mellow out a little bit, but definitely, I want to say she had her claws in me. So being the youngest, I wanted a mother. I needed a mother to nurture me and see me through and all of that. But when I would turn to her and ask her things, it would be, "You just sound like your father. Have you been talking to him again?" or I had a cousin who is my dad's sister's child. We were quite close when we were younger, and whenever her and I would get together, we'd come away, and I would be like, "We had so much fun. I didn't want to leave." So, of course, you're like, "I don't want to go, mom. Let's stay." And she'd be like, "We have to go now. It's time." And then we'd get in the car, and you didn't get a backhand, but, holy, you got a tongue lashing. "You embarrassed me. When it's time to go, we have to go. And you're acting I'm not going to take you over here. You're acting just like a brat. Just like she is." and all of that stuff that would come out of it. So, she wasn't just a narcissist from the divorce. She definitely had some manipulation tactics in there as a parent,Dawn TaylorBig time.Anonymous GuestBut she had got remarried, and that didn't go well for us kids. They stayed happily well. They stayed married for many years until he passed away. But when they got married, she did everything for him. And we, as kids felt like she had set us aside. So, all of her efforts went into him, cooking for him, making the meals that he wanted, doing the things that he wanted to do, doing the things for his children who lived with their other mother, with their mother. And then we just felt like we were backseat nuisance children after that. And of course, then my other siblings moved out and then me being left at home, and then the story just goes on, but the continuation of the guilt that we were made to feel because we wanted to have a relationship with our father.Dawn TaylorHow old were you when your mom got remarried?Anonymous GuestSix.Dawn TaylorOkay, so it was fairly quick.Anonymous GuestYeah.Dawn TaylorI shouldn't say that. It's like, oh, my gosh. It's not like it was the next day, but reasonably fast. With that, something that's so interesting about narcissists is they always choose their favorites, right? And they do. They choose the favorite that is like their person or people, and then everybody else gets pushed aside, and they'll often pit them against each other.Anonymous GuestOh, that's interesting. Amongst us siblings, my sister and I, we would joke that my brother was the favorite, and he's the one that's older than me, the next to me, and he's a lovely, high-caring, high-emotional human being. But she gets to nurture him. She got to nurture him, and he was the kind of person that accepted it. But, he drives her crazy to this day until being an adult, getting to know him and talking about how things are like, my sister and I would laugh and say, "Well, he's the favorite." And in a way, maybe in her eyes, he is, because he needs nurturing and is somebody for her to dote on. But in his eyes, I really think he saw it as, he was singled out. I don't know. He just felt maybe guilty for getting the extra attention.Dawn TaylorThat is huge and common as an adult is realizing that. And they do. There is an emotional manipulation and a complete favoritism of one child. And that child typically never gets the lashings the same, they don't get the yelling the same. They don't get any of that. And it's very controlled.Anonymous GuestWell, that would explain–Dawn Taylor--very controlled.Anonymous GuestWhen he got divorced, him and his wife were, they were married, and they decided to split up. Their daughter was probably two or three years old. Wow. My mom got involved, and my sister-in-law put a quick end to that, and she was having no part of it. It was not my mother's divorce. It was none of her business, and she was not to be involved and no phoning her anymore, and that was the end of that. So then my mom turned away from that, and now my sister-in-law is a total biatch and she lost control.Dawn Taylor100%. She lost her control.Anonymous GuestShe lost all of that control. And then my mom was saying things about, "Well, what's going to happen to my granddaughter now?" And all this stuff, and it's like, "Really? You think they're going to raise her poorly? You think they're going to throw her in the street now because they're divorced?" It was just absolutely ridiculous, the things that my mother would say about my sister-in-law. And I didn't see her for quite a few years in between, because when this was happening, I was a teen and doing my own thing, living my own life, but I wasn't involved in it. But, when I did see her later on as an adult, we just laughed. We just laughed. We have a hoot together. When we do get together now with my niece, we chat and chitchat and she's an awesome lady. She raised an amazing girl.Dawn TaylorBut it's interesting, it's there is such a beautiful connection, if it's safe to say, between the kids, typically, that weren't the favorite, or people from the outside looking in. So, growing up, I always find it interesting too, how it doesn't matter. even though they're divorced, they're remarried, everything's moved on, they still will not let go of that hatred, right? They still need to pitch you against that parent. So growing up, you're forced to see the parent to a degree because of custody and all those things. But let's talk about that relationship with your dad, how that progressed as you got older. Because as a child, it's easy. You see him every summer, you see him every holiday. It's way more simplified. But, as we become teens and as we grow up and as we become adults and all those things and there's not like a set visitation schedule, how did your relationship with your dad go?Anonymous GuestIt was great. We lived in Edmonton. And when I became of age, dad lived west of town. He lived close to Jasper, so there would be lots of times I would just say "I want to go see Dad this weekend." And Mom would drive me down to the bus depot and I'd ride the bus out to where he was, and I'd hang out with him for the weekend. And he had a business, and of course, he had to work on Saturday. So, I went to work with him and he challenged me. "Can you do this? Can you try this?" And I was this shy, little kid who was quiet and happy reading a book or coloring in my coloring book and Dad threw me out there, and he was like, "Come on. We got to go talk to these people. We have business to do. This is how business was run. You have to learn how to do this." which was totally good for me because I'm being an entrepreneur today. I'm sure I draw on some of that.Dawn TaylorTotally.Anonymous GuestBut we'd be driving around in the truck and didn't matter where we were. We always had something to talk about. And sometimes it turned into apparent information giving section session. Or somewhat a lecture. But he always talked. He always talked. We always talked. Whether it was music, horses, business, skiing. We always had a conversation.Dawn TaylorEmotions are good. Emotions are good. These conversations often bring up emotions in people, and it's good. We need to process some feels.Anonymous GuestYeah, there's so much there. There's so much history.Dawn TaylorOh, there is. So how did that continue throughout your life? Like, did your mom continue your entire life to try to pit you against your dad? Or did she ever finally so she never, ever just accepted it?Anonymous GuestNever stopped. Even to the point where I was about 15, and my mom and her new husband, they had a business, and of course they were drinking, and they were drinking a lot. All the time. I was at home all nights by myself. I'd go to bed, there'd be nobody at home. Get up for school in the morning, and everybody's still in bed. And I'd go to school and do what I had to do and lived my life on my own as an independent teenager, and in my opinion, they worked, they drank, they got drunk, they went to bed. It's pretty much how it happened. And I don't remember what happened, but something had come up, an event came up. We didn't end up going to it. I was upset, and I got on the bus and I rode out to my dad. Didn't tell anybody I was going there.Dawn TaylorOh, no.Anonymous GuestGot there and show up at his office, and he's like, "What are you doing here?" And he's like, "I'm not going back. I'm moving in with you." And that was not good. In the feeling one way I was felt let down because he didn't want me to be there. So, there was part of that, but at the same time, "You're supposed to be living with your mother. You need to be with your mother." And this was him. This was coming from him, and so my brother got involved. Off we went, back to my mom's house, get there, and they're just getting up at the crack of bedtime or noon or whatever. And my dad's wife, actually, she took me away from the conversation. The conversation happened, and I stayed. And things apparently were supposed to get better living with my mom and her husband, but they didn't. And I finished high school. I went to school with my car packed, got my report card when school was done. Walked over to my mom or drove over to where she was at at work, dropped the report card off on her desk and left to move to Edmonton and never looked back.Dawn TaylorWow. You needed out, like so badly needed out.Anonymous GuestYeah.Dawn TaylorSo how did your relationship continue at that point with your mom?Anonymous GuestIt, well, funny thing. When I moved to the city, I moved in with my dad, but I was an adult.Dawn TaylorI was going to say he probably wanted you to live with him that whole time, but he also knew the wrath of your mom.Anonymous GuestExactly. There was a secondary thing going on there. So, I moved in with him, lived with him for a while, went to school. They had a business at Edmonton. So I worked with them for the summer. Their business. My job ended at the end of summer and it was like, "Well, what are you going to do?" And I'm like, "I don't know. I'm fresh off the hick town, Albert. I don't know what I'm supposed to do."Dawn TaylorLiving in this city.Anonymous GuestLiving in the city. I don't know anybody. I don't know what to do. So I looked back. I moved back home with my mom.Dawn TaylorOh my goodness.Anonymous GuestYeah, and then thought I lived there. That worked for about six months, I think, and then I met up with a friend that I went to school with and moved back to Edmonton and went back to school and went to college. And, I was like, "Okay, I got to be a big girl and stand on own two feet." But I still had a relationship with my mom, not so much with my dad. It was hard with my dad because his wife at that time, she was interesting during the time that I was living with them. My brother started going through his divorce at the same time, and he ended up actually living there as well. And, he didn't want us there. So some conflict happened. My brother and I both moved out and moved on, but all of that was a tipping point. And I boiled over. I was okay, but emotionally, I couldn't deal with it all. So I had ceased seeing my dad. And so I was, what, 20, 21? Something like that. And I didn't see my dad till line was 35. The reason now I singled him out. But I always looked to my mom for that maternal support, that hug, that emotional support that you needed. And with her always saying, "He's the bad guy." I couldn't deal with the conflict, but I needed the maternal support, so I stay with her. And it took me a long time to realize that I needed him as well.Dawn TaylorTotally. Interesting, though, looking back, the manipulation was that strong. Do you know what I mean? My mom often would say horrible things about my dad. She was very negative about my dad, and she wasn't a narcissist, but she forever put him down. And it's interesting right now as adults being like, wow, even when we were old enough to know better, even when, experience-wise, it wasn't proven, that was such a core, fundamental belief as to who he was, right. And I can't imagine ‘=on your side, right, having had that start at the age of four and the overt manipulation of it your entire life, right, at 20, 21, at that age, we are so immature, right? Like, we think we're adults, we think we know everything, and we are so naive and immature, and we see one very tiny perspective of everything, right? Like, one very tiny side of everything. But that was like, the 16, 17 years of hatred towards him probably are what stole those years from you in a way.Anonymous GuestIt did. It honestly did. But at the same time, me. I had to do something for myself and I went to counseling. I talked to a counselor, and just, you know, what is it? That was the first time that I was able to talk to somebody about my perspective, and they wanted to know what I had to say and what my opinion was. So, that was kind of cool to be able to have that and then my last session with the lady, she was like, Cheryl, you know exactly what you want to do. Trust yourself. Just reassured me that my feelings were valid. And what I was thinking was as a child, you're sitting back and you're going, "Well, this is my mom. My mom says stuff. It should be true. Well, this is my dad. My dad says, it should be true." And my dad was never, he would be like, "Well, that's your mom talking. That's how she talks. We just have to deal with her. But as we got older, he would just call her a crazy biatch because how else do you describe it? But he was never the one to say, "Don't be with her." or he never tried to have us not see her, right? He always, I don't know, knew we had to be there or something. But she was the one who would just constantly talk about him. And it was like I said, the Sunday phone call every week. The month before we were going on summer holidays. Same thing. There was that torment that she would the lead up of us leaving to go on vacation with him. Always. Dawn TaylorSo as an adult. So you didn't see your dad for a really long time. Still had your mom in your life, except for she's busy with husband and everything else. What was it that finally triggered a relationship? Back with your dad? Anonymous GuestIt was my grandmother, my mother's mother Dawn TaylorWow. Anonymous GuestYeah, I was down there one day at her house, and we were chatting, and I don't know how it came up, but I found out afterwards that she was talking to my dad on the phone, that she talked to him every month. And probably, I talked to him every month since they got divorced. Dawn TaylorInteresting. Anonymous GuestBut I never knew what they talked about or how often or anything like that. But she just looked at me and she said, you deserve a relationship with your dad. Dawn TaylorThat's an interesting word, deserve, when it's something that's been thrown in your face your whole life. And I don't know, there's something about the word deserve that just hit me right in the feels there when you said it, right? It's like no, it's not you should have a relationship, or you must have a relationship, or why don't you have a relationship? It's like, "No, you deserve to have a relationship with your dad. This is something that youdeserve." A powerful word.Anonymous GuestWhy she chose those words, I don't know. But she was a very smart lady. Dawn TaylorAnd she probably knew she knewyour mom. Anonymous GuestOh, absolutely. Dawn TaylorShe knew your mom. Anonymous GuestWe live down the street.Dawn TaylorRight? She would have seen, like, while she may have not wanted to admit what was all going on, she also would have experienced all of it. Anonymous GuestWell, I'm sure there would have been a lot of conversations that happened, because, like, me going to my mom, I'm sure my mom went to hers. Dawn TaylorAbsolutely.Anonymous GuestTo have the conversation of "This is how I feel." or "This is what's happened." that type of thing. And my grandma was very involved. Like, she lived down the street from us. She was at the other end of the block, so there was a lot of interaction there. But for grandma to come up and say, "You deserve this." It was a reassurance that it was okay for me to do it. Dawn TaylorYeah, well, that you could have it, and I guess that it was even more powerful because it was your mom's mom. Right? So it was like this connection to your mom, this person that you had wanted and craved this maternal relationship with your entire life, that I don't know if a lot of narcissists can have, right? There's so much of it is about a manipulation that it's not actually a real love, it's not actually a real thing. And I know that was one of the hardest things with my mom, is acknowledging the fact that my mom couldn't ever be who I needed her to be, right? Like, there was no way that my mom would ever be able to actually show up in the way I needed her to or love me in the way I needed her to, or comfort me in the way I needed her to. But to hear that from her mom, right, who is this other maternal figure in your life.Anonymous GuestIn any family, you have team dad and team mom, right? So you have maternal and the fraternal, and they never seem to get along, and they never seem to come together as one. So it's like team one and team two, and who's going to win the game? So when my grandmother came to me, it was wisdom. It was power in those words.Dawn TaylorAbsolutely.  But also so far out of what should have been said. Do you know what I mean? It needed to have be said. But team one and two don't mix. Get back in team two. You're on the wrong side of this game right now.Anonymous GuestWell, and this is it. It shouldn't be like that, right? At one time, they all lived in the same town, so they all knew each other. They all had dinner together, all went to the coffee shop together, and then they moved. But, my mother split everything apart where it had to be her or them, and she emotionally made it that way for me, where if I would have stayed dealing with both of them, if I would have had the vocabulary and the skill set to be able to have a conversation with my dad or my mom and say, "This is what I want, or this is what I need." it would have been different. But I didn't have that, because with my mom growing up, if I ever went to her and said, "Hey, mom, dad phoned." I don't know what to do. Whatever it would just be. And then you'd have the whole 20 years of history of what a rotten person he was. So then right away, my decision was, "Oh, I won't go do that with him. I won't go. I'll just stay here." Because it must be bad if she's saying all of this, and when you always have that influence, why do you ever want to go over there, right? And it was funny because most parents, when they tell you not to do something, you do it. But with this, it was constant. It was there from day one. And it was just beaten into my head that this is the way it was. Dawn TaylorSo, then you have this conversation with your dad and reignite this relationship. How did your mom take that? Anonymous GuestWell, that was, she was, she was very "Oh." and there's, you know, that meme where that one just sits there and just goes, "Oh." and then just stops. I had gotten married, was pregnant, and I invited my mom out for dinner. So her and I went for dinner. She came, picked me up, we went out for dinner, did our thing, and then there was all these little snips the whole time we were having our meal about my father. And then we got back to the house, and I was like, "Okay, I'm in a safe spot. I can do this." I opened the car door. I stood outside the car and just said to her, "I will not let you do to this child what you did to me. This stops now, or you will never see this child." and closed the door and walked away. And I guess that was my warning call to her. It was big. It took her a couple to phone me, but then we also cooled her jets a little bit. She didn't stop, but she did slow down, and she decided not to talk to him. And it got me thinking, maybe somebody just needed to stand up to her all these years and stop this poor behavior that she was doing. Maybe that's all that needed to happen. Dad did. Every time he'd see her, he would not stand down from an argument from her, and nor would she. But, as kids, we were kids. We were the kids. We were the ones that she was somehow protecting. But, she didn't realize how badly I was wounded out of it and how she alienated me, because there's definitely a feeling now when I look at my dad and I feel very differently towards my dad than I do my mom, and my mom is she's starting to have some senior memory issues. Not sure if there's been a diagnosis there or not, but I look at my mom and I see this woman who's turning into this very sweet, kind, daughter-y memory loss kind of person and I look at her and I'm like, I have negative feelings. I am probably more angry with her now than I was as a kid. And my dad, we talk every week, sometimes twice, Dawn TaylorWhich is very understandable. I think it's very- you guys can't see this, but her puppy just jumped up on her lap. I think. He was like, "I need to just love on my mommy right now because she's feeling some feels." It's interesting now as her actions are changing and her behaviors are changing, right? It's almost like she gets to forget the past and she gets to forget the hurt and she gets to forget everything that went down and all of the anger and all of the pain and all of of things. Yet for her children, many of you are probably just starting to process it and actually be like, "Hey, wait a sec. That wasn't okay. Those weren't okay