Dr. Ben Freedman & Dr. David Wu | Limax Biosciences | Innovation, Collaboration, & ”Snail Man”

Dr. Ben Freedman and Dr. David Wu are the founder and advisor of Limax Biosciences, respectively. In this episode, they discuss their breakthrough innovation of novel biomaterials to transform healthcare, why collaboration and mentorship are so important, and how slugs inspired their work to the point of Ben being featured in a German TV show as the superhero Snail Man.

Guest links: https://www.limaxbiosciences.com/

Charity supported: Save the Children

Interested in being a guest on the show or have feedback to share? Email us at podcast@velentium.com.

PRODUCTION CREDITS Host: Lindsey Dinneen Editor: Tim Oliphant Producer: Velentium

SHOW NOTES

Episode 016 - Dr. Ben Freedman & Dr. David Wu

Lindsey Dinneen: Hi, I'm Lindsey with Velentium and I'm talking with MedTech industry leaders on how they change lives for a better world.

Diane Bouis: The inventions and technologies are fascinating and so are the people who work with them.

Frank Jaskulke: There was a period of time where I realized, fundamentally, my job was to go hang out with really smart people that are saving lives and then do work that would help them save more lives.

Diane Bouis: I got into the business to save lives and it is incredibly motivating to work with people who are in that same business, saving or improving lives.

Duane Mancini: What better industry than where I get to wake up every day and just save people's lives.

Lindsey Dinneen: These are extraordinary people doing extraordinary work, and this is The Leading Difference.

Hello and welcome to the Leading Difference Podcast. I'm your host Lindsey, and I am very excited to introduce you to my guests today. They are Dr. Ben Freedman. He is the founder of Limax Biosciences, and along with him I am honored to have Dr. David Wu, who is an advisor for Limax Biosciences. Gentlemen, thank you so very much for joining me. I am so delighted that you're here. Thank you for being here.

Dr. Ben Freedman: Thanks so much for having us. It's great to speak with you today.

Lindsey Dinneen: Absolutely.

Dr. David Wu: Thank you for having us.

Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, absolutely. Well, I would love if you all wouldn't mind starting by sharing just a little bit about yourself, some of your background, how you got into the industry, and what you're excited about right now. Maybe we can start with Ben, and then David, I'll turn it over to you after that.

Dr. Ben Freedman: That sounds great. Yeah, so for me, I was always interested in science and technology in high school and prior to that point in time, and when I was looking at opportunities for what to major in as an undergrad, I came across bio-medical engineering, which at the time was really an emerging field that kind of blended a lot of the interests that I had between medicine and engineering and technology. And I got involved with a number of different courses. Had a number of different research experiences as an undergraduate and a lot of really fantastic dedicated research mentors that really pushed me to start to explore so many different areas within the field and industry and get a sense for all the different neat and exciting activities that were going on. And I really enjoyed research at the time, in the bioengineering space that led me to do a PhD in Bioengineering at the University of Pennsylvania where I was asking a little bit more basic science questions but had really strong interest in translation, in developing new therapies.

So, after that point in time, I continued to do a postdoc at Harvard and the Wyss Institute where we started kind of combining a lot of my interests from my PhD in soft tissue biomechanics with developing new therapies to try to improve the healing process. And one of those therapies that we came across very early is that we realized that for material to deliver something, whether that be a some cells or other type of drug therapy, two tissues. It really needed to be coupled to tissues locally. So we started exploring this area bioadhesive, quickly realized that this was a really exciting area, not for just areas within the orthopedic space, but really many different types of diseases throughout the body. And it basically led us to kind of explore not only the academic path, but also a lot of the translational paths as well. That's really what's brought us here today.

Lindsey Dinneen: Amazing. Thank you. David?

Dr. David Wu: Hi everyone. So, I am right now a clinician scientist at Harvard University and what got me interested in the space, so during high school and an earlier part of undergrad, I was really fascinated by this idea of biotechnology and the fusion between the biomedical engineering, biology, as well as healthcare. So I did my undergraduate training in anatomy and cell biology at McGill University in Montreal. And during that experience, being fascinated as a student to learn more about research, I was involved in several different aspects of research, including stem cell biology, tissue engineering and immunology. Wanted to explore a little bit more about how these things were intertwined together. At the same time, through working with the local community on certain humanitarian initiatives and community initiatives, I got exposed to the field of dental medicine actually because I was interested in having a very direct impact on each individual patient's lives, on a daily basis, as well as learning more about research and how to advance the field. As a scientist, I managed to combine both. So during my dental school at McGill University, as well, I was involved in a project in stem cell biology and regenerative medicine, looking at how we use bone marrow cell extract to help patients who have oral cancer and have undergone a radiation therapy. So as a result of these type of radiation therapy, patients would have their salivary gland destroyed, and that could lead to a lot of oral complications, including rampant caries, different types of infections, so making these patients lives very difficult. And exploring different regenerative therapies, and that introduced me to the field of tissue engineering.

So, fast forward a couple of years in terms of graduation from dental school, I had the option of pursuing specialty training to become a specialist. And the specialty that I chose was the field of periodontology or periodontics. And for those of you who don't know what that entails, periodontology is basically a specialty treating gum diseases and building a good foundation of supporting structure, supporting your teeth. So your jawbone, your mandible, your gum. And right now what we do is a series of plastic surgery, a reconstructive surgery, to help patients with severe disease to build them back to a health condition to allow them to smile and chew. And part of that involves regenerative medicine and tissue engineering.

So when I started at Harvard University, I had the privilege of meeting professor David Mooney, who was a world expert in tissue engineering and bio materials, and decided to start my doctoral thesis at the lab. And at the same time, that's how I met Benjamin Freedman, who was postdoc at the lab at the time, and we started collaborating on these projects, exploring the application of bio adhesives in different indications. And one of the indications we're exploring has to do with the cranial facial complex. So that kind of attracted me to the MedTech industry as well.

Lindsey Dinneen: Wonderful. Yeah. And so I would love to hear then more about Limax?

Dr. Ben Freedman: Yeah. A number of existing topical adhesives such as the super glues, the cyanoacrylate-based adhesives that are used commonly for superficial wound closure actually don't perform very well once you start using them in any sort of wet or actively bleeding environment that those types of glues become very rigid and don't bond well to the underlying tissue surface. A lot of existing tissue pieces are very weak. They're brittle upon any interaction with dynamically moving tissues or organs, compression, which is very common inside the body where a lot of these materials simply crumble upon any sort of mechanical stimulus that you place on them. That is coupled with a lot of the complications and challenges with the human body. There's a lot of wet tissues, a lot of tissues that are bleeding or exuding other fluids. And while these materials are really designed to try to prevent leaks and things like that, when they actually don't perform very well once they start to interact with wet surfaces.

So for all these reasons they certainly demand for new materials. There's also, of course, a number of complications that have been reported for other types of bio adhesives, depending on their cross-linking mechanisms that include areas where they're toxic to underlying tissues. They can create all sorts of catastrophic embolization events and many other areas which are reported in the literature, which has really driven a big demand for developing new materials. But there's been a limitation in the field and kind of a breakthrough that we had made a number of years ago before I had started working in the lab with Dave Mooney at Harvard and the Wyss Institute. There was a discovery that was made for generating materials with really unique mechanical properties. And this was actually something that we didn't realize was gonna be as important for adhesives until recently. Because the reason why existing adhesives fail is that there's been a huge amount of efforts placed on generating strong adhesion to underlying tissue surfaces. But there has not been as big of an emphasis on generating materials that have strong cohesion such that the materials may be sticking strongly, but they have such weak matrix properties that they will fracture upon any sort of mechanical stimulus.

And it turns out that you actually need really strong, cohesive properties first before you can generate really strong adhesive properties. So it turns out that a number of years ago, about 10 years ago at this point there was a discovery made at Harvard University where a new form of hydrogel was created. So hydrogel is a swollen polymer network. It's about 90% water, and It was discovered that if you created a dual interpenetrating network of two different types of polymers, one that dissipates energy and another that has high elasticity, that either one alone has relatively weak mechanical properties, but if you couple the two together, they interact synergistically to create a material with very high what we call material toughness.

And these tough hydrogels have really enabled us to reimagine what we can do with a biomedical tissue. This same high toughness principle was later applied in around the year timeframe of 2016, 2017, when the bioadhesive were first developed in the Mooney group by a very talented postdoc, genuinely, who was now faculty at McGill. And this is around the time that I was starting in the lab and since then we've been working to, to create new versions within materials that have really interesting new properties, but it's really the synergistic interactions between this interpenetrating network with high toughness that's then added, coated with an adhesive layer that allows us to generate strong adhesion. And where all this came from is we were inspired by nature. We are coming from the Wyss Institute for Biologically Inspired Engineering at Harvard where we tried to turn to nature for new ideas to create new materials that have unique properties.

So here we actually turned to the slug. And when slugs feel threatened, they secret a very sticky mucus that prevents 'em from being taken away by a predator. If you analyze the composition of this mucus, there's a whole series of slug slime researchers out there who have done a fantastic job quantifying some of the compositional and mechanical properties of this mucus, that it has actually very tough mechanical properties. You can stretch slug slime about 10 to 15 times its initial length without breaking, and if you analyze the composition of that same slime, it's about 90% water. It's a hydrogel, and it has a dual interpenetrating network of ions, proteins, and sugars that give it its unique mechanical properties. So, once we started realizing this, it, became clear that, hey, we have actually a material already in the lab that has really high material toughness, our tough hydrogel. Maybe we could actually couple that to tissues by applying some of the same principles of this interpenetrating network with a very amine rich bridging polymer, which we try to recapitulate in the lab.

So we don't use any slug components. Full disclosure, no slug components. It's inspired by slugs and actually, Limax is Latin for "slug." So we have kept the slug theme all the way up to the creation of this entity. So it's something that we, hold very closely near and dear to our hearts. And something that we think has a really unique strategy to solve a very pressing, unmet clinical need.

Lindsey Dinneen: Well that is amazing and I love the story behind it. And so I just have to ask, are you ever gonna have a snail mascot or is that a thing?

Dr. Ben Freedman: That's a great question. That's a great question. But before we all laugh, we do integrate a little bit of the slug with our logo. So if you go back and look at the logo now, you'll probably notice there's a little component that does have some slug- like characteristics. And actually for fun back in 2017, a TV show based in Germany, which is essentially the Discovery Channel of Germany, came by to do a segment on our materials and they actually turned me into a snail superhero that they coined Snail Man. So, that is online someplace. But it's a fantastic snippet of what our materials can do and how they may have a, what we hope a great impact on healthcare.

Lindsey Dinneen: That's amazing. I love that and I am definitely gonna have to Google that later because that's pretty fantastic. Well, I'm curious for both of you, are there any particular moments or a moment that really stands out to you as something that reinforced the idea to you that this is the right industry for you?

Dr. David Wu: I think I can get started on this one. So my interest to get into the medtech industry is as a clinician, as a surgeon, you are doing a lot of surgery. You see a lot of different cases where you need a certain technology to make a treatment available to the patient in order to obtain the best results. But sometimes these treatment modalities or these technologies are not yet available. There's some maybe basic science research that demonstrated certain effects that are promising for clinical application, but in clinic, there's no such thing available. So my goal as a clinician, as a scientist, and entrepreneur is basically bridging the gap between benchtop research as well as clinic. And in order to translate this technology, I think the involvement of the medtech industry is so critical because it's a long, arduous journey to translate a basic science discovery all the way to benefit each individual patients. It involves a regulatory process. It involves manufacturing, design, marketing, so many different steps. So that was the main catalyst and my mission that drives me to not only doing these translational type of research, but also to building a strong line of, of products, of technologies to change how we treat patients and how patients benefit from these type of treatment in terms of quality of life, as well as successful outcome.

Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, that's great, Ben?

Dr. Ben Freedman: And for me it was, I don't know, going back to when I was really young. When I was in fourth grade, I think I, I had a kind of this toy robot that I was trying to build and the instructions kind of had a relatively basic design of the wrist of the robot. So it was pretty much fully rigid. The hand could open and close, but it couldn't exhibit the other types of range of motion that our human wrist could have. So I added some other motors and gadgets and things like that to kind of re-engineer the wrist. I think maybe that was an early sign that I was I was going to be a bioengineer cuz I was kind of curious to innovate, curious to try to develop new solutions that could better represent the actual human condition. And through that in a number of different projects that had been going on for a number of years, well before PhD undergrad projects, early on I took a technical entrepreneurship course. Kind of got involved with what would go into a business plan relatively early, got the chance to enter some competitions very early, which were great learning experiences and kind of left me hungry for more. And I think all these experiences, have kind of added up where, I definitely wanna be an innovator. I want to inspire new scientists, train new students, and develop new solutions for really pressing unmet needs that exist. I think, talking to so many folks, clinicians in this space, having family members that have also experienced a number of these terrible diseases and disorders that there's certainly so much work that still needs to be done and not enough folks out there developing new solutions here as we're running out of time to, to do all these things. So, certainly feel kind of the time pressure to develop new and an important solutions. And really to try to think big. I think that's really the most exciting part is to have a problem and really develop a solution that can really address that, that specific problem in the best possible way.

Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. So both of you have had really interesting career paths that have led you to where you are today, and it sounds like leadership has been a winding thread through various different avenues for you both. So, I'm curious, two things. One is what does leadership mean to you? And then the second thing would be what advice would you have for someone who might be interested in doing something similar to what you're doing or is looking for a leadership role within the medtech industry? So whoever would love to take that, I'd just be curious to know your thoughts.

Dr. David Wu: Yeah, I can start. I think the most important part of leadership is finding a common mission and enabling people on your team to achieve that common mission together, whether it is teaching them the skills to do so or encouraging them. I think just bring everybody to achieve a same mission, the common mission, the common goal. For example, in the MedTech industry, it could be developing a new biomedical device to, to solve a particular technical or surgical issue in order to improve treatment outcome for a specific population. It could even be broader, right? Tackle aging or tackle specific type of cancer. So, having the ability to really gathering the team and to inspiring every individual team member, who are from different backgrounds, who have different priorities and different level of life experiences and skills. And how do you find the common denominator and how do you motivate them? I think that's the key to success to leadership.

Dr. Ben Freedman: And I think just to add to that, there's certainly different types of leaders, different types of leadership positions, even within a single organization. I think just finding the right people that can help build that positive work environment, that can help motivate a group and inspire group to go after a common goal. And I think if you can get everybody on board with not only the mission, but but really have the drive to where it doesn't necessarily feel like work. It feels like everybody's going after something that's gonna be extremely impactful. You know, award credit when credit is due. All these things are really important characteristics of what I think goes into making somebody be a good leader. Certainly lots of things that you could learn in a class, but also a lot of it is practice and learning how to manage a lot of things going on at the same time, communicating really effectively, really recognizing accomplishments and achievements for those in the team. And being organized and focused to define goals that are within reach are all the different kind of important qualities that will go into being a successful leader. I think, we're relatively both early in our careers. So I think we're still trying to learn some of the key things here and in talking to some of our mentors about how they may handle situations and learning from others. There's always things to learn in this space to further advance our own careers.

Lindsey Dinneen: Of course. And what about any advice you might have for somebody who's interested in, again, either doing something similar or obtaining a leadership role, just maybe somebody who's even earlier on in their career. What would you say to them?

Dr. Ben Freedman: So, I mean, I think there's a number of things here. A number of different little key bits of advice. Certainly, people will say that you need a lot of grit, you need to work hard, you need to be determined. It's easy to say those things, but it's also, you have to practice going through those different things too, where not every day's going to be winning a competition, where there's gonna be a lot of failure. There's gonna be a lot of unanswered questions. There's gonna be a lot of things where it may not feel like you're making a huge amount of progress. You might be making a little bit of progress. You might be taking steps forward, you might be taking steps backward. But hopefully, you just have to keep your eye on the goal. And I think a lot of these skill sets with grit and determination and, not just working hard but working smart. Being really efficient with hours and time are some of the things that we've developed during this postgraduate, graduate training which, I think has been helpful probably for us as young, aspiring scientists and entrepreneurs to really have an eye on where things can go. Appreciate that it's not necessarily a straight line and things can go in all sorts of directions.

But just to, try to keep a focus and we heard an analogy last night, we were at the Resolve Mass Challenge event and taking place in Boston. One of the keynotes was talking about thinking about approaching problems with kind of a bandpass filter. Filtering out the really good things and how that might affect you and the really bad. So just to keep kind of a more moderate response to a lot of the different things that are coming. And I think, part of that is true. Keep a steady pace and surround yourself with folks that, that share in your, mission and that can hear your stresses and successes and you know, just surround yourself with the people, great people and that can push you to do new things. And I think that's really an important part for folks in this industry and other industries. Where you're not doing this in a silo. I heard once that, the hardest job of somebody in these, top leadership positions, whether that be CEO or academic professors is not necessarily the company, or the lab or the whatever. It's managing your own mental health. And I think, that's certainly, an important part and something that we all have to work toward. And I think if you do that in addition to doing really good science and really good in innovative technology development, hopefully that will be something that leads to success, but it's not an easy path. It's a lot of factors that can be out of your control as well, depending on industry dynamics and people, et cetera. But until that point we're certainly in this interesting phase of great determination and surrounding ourselves with fantastic people that, that share in our vision.

Lindsey Dinneen: Absolutely. David, anything to add to that?

Dr. David Wu: Yes, I think one of the advice to, to any young folks either in the industry, in academia or in clinical practice is be open-minded. There's a lot of things we currently don't know. So having the foresight to network within your own industry, but also in adjacent industries. And really exploring what are the different innovations, the different discoveries going on, and how to cross pollinate and how to collaborate with each other because we have to acknowledge that we only have so much time and so much expertise in, in our domain. So having the opportunity to collaborate with people outside of our immediate field, that could be really beneficial.

A second point I'd like to touch on is a mentorship. As young, aspiring leaders and inventors in the industry, entrepreneurs, it's important to seek mentorship and to learn from those veterans who have been there, done that. They have a lot of advice to share. How did they start their own journey? So by talking to these different mentors and really building your core group of mentors, or for example, there's one particular term in the literature I'd like to refer to as your "personal board advisors." So identify these people that play a certain role in your own growth, in your own development that could really expand your horizons in terms of knowledge as well as network.

And the third point I'd like to touch about is dream big and also act on it. And recently, I heard somebody in my network talk about this concept. When opportunities come knocking on your door, you gotta be ready and you gotta be there to open that door. So, when you have a dream, you're not gonna be able to foresee what's gonna be coming towards you next year or the year after. But what you can do is to build a set of skill, to build a network within the industry and to understand what are some key areas of opportunity and aligning yourself up for that. And when you're presented with these opportunities, see those opportunities.

Lindsey Dinneen: Absolutely. Yeah, that is great advice. Thank you very much both of you for that. I think you've touched on something that is really important and kind of a running theme of the interviews I've done so far is the concept that there are many avenues to a dream, and if you're open and you're willing to explore the opportunities that come your way, whether or not you initially thought that's how it would work out, I mean it leads people to some pretty amazing opportunities and experiences if you're willing to be open and you're willing to be humble enough to know that you're gonna be learning and growing your whole life.

Well, on a different note, for both of you, just a fun question. Imagine someone were to offer you a million dollars to teach a masterclass on anything you want, doesn't have to be in your industry, but it could. What would you choose to teach and why?

Dr. David Wu: If I were offered an opportunity to teach a masterclass, and this might be coming from a totally different angle, but I would teach the art of Japanese sushi and sashimi making. And part of the reason why is first, it's full of art and history. And as the culinary arts is embedded in history. There's also a lot of knowledge you need to know and a lot of training. So just out of interest, for background knowledge, a Japanese chef for a Japanese sushi chef, when they undergo through training, it takes them about three years just preparing the rice for the sushi. And that is the amount of detail, technical knowledge, repetition, and perseverance. And once they're passed onto that stage, they move on to, to teach 'em how to make it a piece of omelet or egg. And that process also takes years. So to really become a master and to hone your skill to reach that level of master sushi chef it takes, 20, 30, even 40 years. And one of the most famous chef in Japan actually is well into his eighties and still perfecting his craft. And that is an analogy to my specialty, which is periodontal surgery. We do a lot of plastic surgery and a lot of the techniques in plastic surgery is very refined. You need to have fine control of the surgical blade. You need to master different levels and tiers of techniques. So that's kind of in parallel to, to the art of sushi making. So if I was offered a million dollars, I will definitely teach a class on these different aspects.

Lindsey Dinneen: I love it. Ben?

Dr. Ben Freedman: Yeah. So before I was-- I guess in parallel, actually, while I was doing science, I had a side job of teaching sailing. I grew up doing some water sports and got really passionate about teaching sailing and not just competitive sailboat racing, but I just loved the whole concept of working with somebody that's never been on the water, may have just learned how to swim and teaching them an entirely different skillset. It's not necessarily like walking or riding a bike, it's something where there's a lot of controls. You're on a boat that's floating and, and the ocean, there's lines to pull, there's ways you have to maintain your balance. All these things that, that go into place so that the boat goes forward, doesn't go in circles and you don't flip the thing over. And I've had such an enjoyable time working with younger students, adults. I volunteered for a number of years for the Sailing Special Olympics, working with athletes of all different backgrounds that, I would, in a heartbeat, love to build a, a whole career out of sailing. Probably not even pay me to do it. I would, certainly do it for free just because it's been such a strong passion of mine over the years. I think there's a lot of similarities to sailing a boat and doing a lot of things in life, whether that be entrepreneurship or learning a new skill or working harder in a class or doing a PhD, et cetera. A lot of times with sailing, it's not like driving a motor boat where you can go from point A to point B, you have to zigzag through the wind. You have waves, you have unintended obstacles that you'll hit, and you have to sometimes adapt on the fly. You can't predict what the weather is going to be or what might be out on the water. And I think that certainly resonates closely with me and the different activities that I'm doing in academia and the industry. And something which I think is true for a lot of us in life. So, without a doubt, I would teach a masterclass in sailing and I would do it for free.

Lindsey Dinneen: Well, we could put the million dollars towards your business. How about that?

Dr. Ben Freedman: Sounds good.

Lindsey Dinneen: Or a cause that you care about? One of the two.

Dr. Ben Freedman: Perfect.

Lindsey Dinneen: Oh, amazing. That is awesome. Thank you both for that. What is one thing that you wish to be remembered for after you leave this world?

Dr. Ben Freedman: I think certainly, we're in this area because we certainly wanna make a difference and we don't wanna necessarily have any regrets of not going after something that could be, a chance to improve healthcare, improve our environment, improve world peace, et cetera. So, I think that we wanna be remembered as or at least I want be remembered as something that goes after challenging problems that are facing the world, going after them in ways that are, of course ethical and, creating a great community and, and group along the way. I'm also really passionate about training folks and enabling them to be successful at whatever they do and solve other really important pressing problems that we're facing. Hoping to make a mark in many different areas I'm gonna hopefully be remembered for those things and hopefully they do result in some new novel device. But if they don't, the way that we're going about it, just wanting to do that in the best possible way that enables others to have a great impact on the world.

Dr. David Wu: And as for me in terms of one thing I wanna be remembered for, as a clinician and a scientist, and I teach a lot students along the way, and I had a lot of mentors who have played this role in my life. I want to be remembered as somebody who really encouraged people to pursue their dreams and provided them with concrete advice, resources, and opportunities so they can find a fulfilling career-- whether it is in the medtech industry developing new devices to help patients, or whether it is to become a scientist to advance their research project or become becoming a clinicians to treat patients-- to help these trainees and students find the ideal career path and the ideal sense of fulfillment for themselves. So as a mentor and as a leader, that's one thing I wanna be remembered for.

Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. Those are great answers. Thank you. And then my final question is, what is one thing that makes you smile every time you see or think about it?

Dr. Ben Freedman: Oh, right now the number one thing that makes me smile-- we just had a our first child a few months ago. And seeing our baby smiling or crying makes me smile every single time.

Lindsey Dinneen: Aw, congratulations. That's wonderful.

Dr. David Wu: And for me, also in terms of you were talking about personal milestones. So this past summer I just got married to my wife. We've been dating for almost 11 years now. So it's a long time coming. And just being able to spend time together, whether talking about our future or going on new adventures, exploring different parts of the world, that's something that makes me smile.

Lindsey Dinneen: Those are great answers. Well and clearly, great reasons to smile, so I'm so glad to hear about those things.

Dr. David Wu: I'm smiling right now.

Lindsey Dinneen: I love it. Well, I just wanna thank you both so, so very much for your time today. We are very honored to be making a donation on your behalf as a thank you for your time today to Save the Children, which works to end the cycle of poverty by ensuring communities have the resources to provide children with a healthy, educational and safe environment. I am truly inspired by what you all are doing and the different solutions that you are developing for a whole variety of different uses. And thank you for your passion and your drive to change lives for a better world. I just wish you both massive, continued success as you go along your paths, and thank you, thank you for being here. And thank you so much to our listeners for tuning in and if you're feeling as inspired as I am right now, I love it if you'd share this episode with a colleague or two and we will catch you next time.

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